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Author Topic: Horcruxes speculation thread  (Read 1453 times)

Ping

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2006, 03:49:50 PM »

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"quasi" horcrux

Actually, that's kind of what I'm going for. I don't think Harry is a full horcrux, but we've seen that he has aspects of LV.

When will book 7 be out? *longing sigh*

Quote
I suspect it went something like this:  LV aimed for Harry, Lily jumped in front, Lily died and LV gets tossed backwards.  When the smoke clears LV is gone and Harry has a scar.

Actually, from what Harry remembers, there was a conversation between Lily and LV. I don't think she jumped at the last minute, I think she was shielding him already when LV killed her to get her out of the way. I could so easily be wrong. :D
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Cho Chung

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2006, 06:40:04 PM »

Well, we know the Avada Kedavra curse produces green light; we know that Harry has some memory of a flash of green light; he seems to hear/recall his mother, already standing in front of Harry, being killed by LV ("Step aside, silly girl..."), so she can't have just "jumped" in front of him.

Are you suggesting that LV never even aimed for Harry??  That would be, well, quite a turn of events.  That would mean that Harry wasn't "The Boy Who Lived."  I think even that is a bit too much of a complicated (convoluted?) plot for JKR to pull.  There are some things that she tends to be pretty straightfoward about, and I would suspect that this is one of them....
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2006, 08:04:31 PM »

Oh, I think he tried to kill Harry, and that's where it backfired. Lily had already died trying to save him, which is why the curse backfired.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2006, 12:13:29 AM »

Er, sorry Ping.  I was replying to Susan's post before I saw yours.  I think I was trying to say the same thing that you said.

I wonder if it's possible to have a "quasi" horcrux.  I guess I'm inclined to think that the scar is exactly what JKR/Dumbledore has said it is:  a remnant of LV's failed attempt to kill Harry that resulted in a transfer of some of LV's powers.  If in fact the scar is a horcrux or a quasi-horcrux, then I would venture to guess that that was unintentional.  I can't imagine that LV actually intended to create a horcrux out of Harry's dead body (which is what he would have been left with if his curse had succeeded). 

But then that raises the question of whether one can create a horcrux unintentionally?

I suppose another possibility is that he was planning on making a horcrux out of something else with Harry's death, but since it rebounded, it made a quasi-horcrux out of Harry's scar.

....

Nope.  I still don't like it.  It's just too complicated a mechanism.  I'm going to stick with my original thought:  for as long as LV's been looking into and making horcruxes (horcruxi?), I gotta believe that he would have had his six horcruxes all made and in place long before he got to the Potters' door. 

... and that's my final answer .... for now.  :P
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2006, 07:16:46 AM »

Aaah, gotcha. :D

I guess the biggest reason it seems possible to me is that Harry DOES have some of LV's powers, which could be a representation of something of LV's soul.

I don't know if I actually believe this is what happened or not, and until JKR says one way or the other, we probably won't know. Just tossing around possibilities. :D
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Susan Bones

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2006, 12:18:09 AM »

What IS the plural form of "horcrux", anyway?

Horcruces?
Horcroi?
Horcru?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2006, 11:12:00 AM »

I believe it was written as horcruxes in the book, though one of the HP podcast folks (I forget who) insists on calling them horcrix. At least, I assume that's how he spells it.
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Angelina Tonks

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2006, 05:03:27 PM »

*laughs at the word horcrix* That sounds so strange.

Looking at thse speculations, I disagree with the Harry-is-a-horcrux theory because Voldemort heard the prophecy (from Snape) and then decided Harry was a threat to him and so set out to kill him. I doubt that Voldemort would want to put a part of his soul into the very person who was prophesised to overcome him. However, I can kind of see Harry being an accidental horcrux, but again think that this might not be true since Voldemort - according to the prophecy - marked Harry as his equal, which I take to mean the parseltongue and connection between their minds. Some people see Harry as a horcrux because Dumbledore said in HBP that Voldemort had made 5 of the 6 horcruxes before he came to Godric's Hollow, but Dumbledore also says that Nagini is a possible horcrux. If Nagini IS a horcrux, then wouldn't she have been made as one after Godric's Hollow?

Remember in OotP when Arthur Weasley is bitten by a snake and Harry sees this through the snake's eyes? Wouldn't this Snake be Nagini? From OotP, we see that Voldemort and Harry have some sort of connection. If Nagini were made a horcrux after Harry's attempted murder, then wouldn't she have a connection with Harry since the fragment of soul inside her was with Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry? This would mean that Harry would have been looking through the eyes of Nagini when Mr Weasley was bitten. 
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Cho Chung

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2006, 06:30:32 PM »

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Some people see Harry as a horcrux because Dumbledore said in HBP that Voldemort had made 5 of the 6 horcruxes before he came to Godric's Hollow

Did Dumbledore really say this?  Sheesh!  You'd never know that I've read the book twice, the second time relatively recently. 

I like your thinking, Angelina, both about why Harry isn't an intentional horcrux, and about why Nagini might be.  ... Besides, how often are Dumbledore's guesses wrong?

So, basically, if Nagini is a horcrux, then Harry will have to find and destroy the other (inanimate) horcruxes, destroy Nagini as well AND destroy/defeat LV in one book??!?!  Inconceivable! 

Well, maybe not.  But that will be one action packed book.
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Susan Bones

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2006, 06:34:48 PM »

I just remembered that Harry & the Weasleys found a locket amongst the junk at Grimmauld Place.  A LOCKET.

It fits, doesn't it, esp. if "R.A.B." is from the noble house of Black?

*Note to self:  must re-read OotP.  Again.
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Angelina Tonks

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2006, 12:03:54 PM »

Yeah, the locket! There's one described in OotP as Susan says:
Quote
a heavy locket that none of them could open;
(Chapter 6, page 108 of the UK edition)
and then in HBP:
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There upon the smooth crimson velvet lay a heavy golden locket.
(Chapter 20, page 409 of the UK edition)
Notice that both lockets are described as "heavy". If R.A.B. is indeed Regulus Black, then that would mean that the lockets are almost certainly the same ones. Mind you, the note in the locket Harry and Dumbledore retrieve says:
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I have stolen the locket and intend to destroy it as soon as I can.
Does that mean it has already been destroyed, or did R.A.B. not manage to destroy it and die before he could? Does that mean that the locket mentioned in OotP is the same locket and still in need of being destroyed?
If the locket hasn't been destroyed, it could be anywhere: Kreacher may have it (as he tried to "save" several objects from Mrs Weasley's cleaning spree), or even Mundungus may have it, since he seems to like taking stuff from Grimmauld place.

And in reply to Cho's post, Dumbledore says to Harry in chapter 23:
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"However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you."
and a few sentences later:
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"I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

It certainly will be an action packed book!
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2006, 01:06:37 PM »

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"I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

This is why I think Harry might have some of Voldy's soul. LV wasn't intending to make Harry a horcrux, I think, but he was intending to use Harry's death as the basis for a horcrux. So, he prepares whatever he needs to perform the spell, levels his wand and.... woops! His soul is split, his body destroyed. Life suddenly sucks.

But I could so easily be wrong. :D
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Susan Bones

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2006, 09:10:38 PM »

To answer Carolyn:
Quote
Does anyone remember how old Tom was in Slughorn's memory? Because on p. 313 of Book 2, it says "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work."

And Cho Chung:
Quote
Killings that LV used to make horcruxes out of:
1) I imagine that killing his father/grandparents would have been a significant killing (whether or not he knew about horcruxes by then would be a different story, but if he did, he'd probably make one then.

Check out pg. 369 in HBP:

"Half a dozen boys were sitting around Slughorn, all on harder or lower seats than his, and all in their mid-teens.  Harry recognized Voldemort at once... with a jolt, Harry saw that he was wearing Marvolo's gold-and-black ring; he had already killed his father."

This scene is in Slughorn's Pensieve memory, when Tom Riddle is asking about Horcruxes.

So Tom learned about Horcruxes after he had killed his father.  "Mid" teens could mean anything, though; but I would guess it would be around 15 or 16.  The diary was probably his first horcrux.




What I'm confused about is how he made the diary from Moaning Myrtle's death.  According to Myrtle's interpretation, it was the basilisk that killed her, not Tom Riddle himself.  Is it because Tom was "using" the basilisk, like a weapon, or perhaps there was another death that Tom was responsible for?



One more oddity for ya to ponder:  Tom Riddle used the basilisk fang to make a horcrux.  Harry used that same basilisk fang to destroy that same horcrux.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 09:13:44 PM by Susan Bones »
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2006, 11:38:26 PM »

Ah.  Thanks, Angelina and Susan, for the passages.  10 points to Angelina, Susan, and Ping for a very interesting discussion!

Susan, good question about the basilisk and Moaning Myrtle's death.  I suppose it would have to be that LV was controlling/commanding the basilisk, and so LV was still ultimately the one who killed her, even if it wasn't with a curse.

That's interesting that he had already killed his father before he learns about horcruxes.  So that means he must have used someone else's death to create the horcrux in the ring.  I wonder if it even matters who he killed.  This makes me wonder, again, about the Riddle House (see the Riddle House thread) and whether or not he may have hidden a horcrux there.  Perhaps that's why he returned there:  cause part of his soul was there.  Maybe he is the wealthy person who owns the house.

Angelina:  great catch on the locket thing!  That has the marks of JKR on it.
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Susan Bones

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2006, 07:36:29 PM »

Quote
Angelina:  great catch on the locket thing!  That has the marks of JKR on it.

er.... wha?  Look again.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2006, 10:16:37 PM »

Ooops.  Sorry, Susan.  I guess I didn't page up enough and just saw Angelina quoting you.  Heh....  :-\
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2006, 11:14:40 PM »

S'ok.  *charms*

So this locket that was found.... if it IS the same one, do you think it's been de-horcruxed yet?  Does the fact that it can't be opened hold a clue?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2006, 07:48:47 AM »

I suspect it does hold a clue.  I suspect that the fact that it can't be opened means that it's still being protected in some way, though you'd think that if dark magic were guarding it, someone who tried to open it would have been fried.

My guess is that RAB (Regulus) was able to get through all the protections that LV put up to get at the locket but could never figure out a way to get into it.  He hid it at home where he could continue to work on it and to keep an eye on it, but he died before he ever figured it out, and no one else knew it was there.

As for where it is now ... ?  Maybe what's-his-name stole it (why don't I recall his name???), maybe he left it there because it couldn't open.  I doubt that Kreacher would have taken it if it belonged to Regulus because Regulus was, in the end, a blood-traitor.  So it might still be in the house.

My guess is that book 7 sees Harry returning to Grimmauld Place, if for no other reason than that he will have no where else to go.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2006, 03:46:47 AM »

Just imagine the warm reception that Mrs. Black's portrait will have for him.

Speaking of the portrait, I have a feeling that Mrs. Black holds an important key to solving the mystery of the locket.  She no doubt watched Regulus (if Reg. is RAB) try to open it.

The place is still somewhat dangerous, isn't it?  Did the Order ever completely clean out the bad stuff?  Sirius wasn't exactly full-on the project, after all...
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2006, 05:38:28 AM »

I just thought of something that I think bears mentioning. RAB is not Regulus, at least not alone. Dumbly said that there needed to be two people to get the locket, and we saw that it was, in fact, very true. RAB, I think, is actually short for R_____ And B_____. Who these people are, I can't say. Rosier and Bode? Ron and Bellatrix? Rhythm and Blues? Maybe Regulus was a part of it, as the less powerful wizard that tagged along as a helper. Maybe he knew he was going to die and so helped in the only way he could. I don't know, but I do think it would have taken two, and the A could just as easily stand for And as it could stand for someone's middle initial.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2006, 11:28:48 AM »

Ooo, I like the idea of it being two people. The style of the letter seems too formal for what we've seen of Regulus, though it's true we've only seen him through Sirius's eye.

I'm holding out hope that RAB is one of the Burke and Borgins folks.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2006, 02:09:10 PM »

I think that RAB stands for Regulus A. Black, and the person who helped him was Kreacher (remember, it took two to get the locket from the basin). Kreacher may hate doing things that hurt LV and his rise to power, but he is still a house-elf, and his loyalty lies with the Black family. This also would give him a reason to "save" it and hide it away, especially if he knows it hasn't been destroyed yet. Also, after a Horcrux is destroyed, it lives a visible mark that shows that it has been tampered with, like the crack on the ring, and the ink spilling out of the diary. So, seeing as the locket wasn't able to be opened, it probably hasn't been destroyed. This will probably be the first Horcrux Harry is going to destroy, but I think Dumbledore failed to teach him how to destroy a Horcrux, and destroying a Horcrux can have dangerous consequences, such as Dumbledore's blackened, withered hand after destroying the ring.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2006, 03:00:08 PM »

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Dumbledore failed to teach him how to destroy a Horcrux

This is so true! There are probably still sources he could learn this from, but it seems like a pretty important omission!
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2006, 01:41:55 PM »

Master, I like your thinking about RAB and Kreacher.  Shelly, I agree that the 'A' could stand for 'and'.  However, I think it more likely that it was one person who enlisted help.  Even if it does take two people to get the locket, it only takes one person to write a note.

So here's a question:  did RAB know that there was a locket in there and come to the cave prepared to leave a "decoy" locket already?  Or did RAB get in there twice?  Once to get the locket and a second time to leave the note?  If it's the first (which is my suspicion), then you would imagine it is either a) someone who was really in LV's confidences to know not only where it was but what it was; b) someone who has the same intelligence/wits as Dumbledore; c) someone who was just really lucky to have overheard LV tell someone what it was and how/where to find it; or d) a really accomplished legilimens!

I don't recall how deep in LV's confidences Regulus Black was, but I didn't think he was quite that close.  Anyone recall? 
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2006, 03:08:36 PM »

I'm trying to think of any conceivable way it could be anyone but Regulus... I think the RAB was probably a red herring to falsely lead us to Regulus. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it's just... too... obvious!

If it were Regulus (playing Devil's Advocate here) then A) it is possible that he was in LV's inner circle. I was just rereading OoP and Sirius says that Regulus joined the Death Eaters from the very beginning, so I suppose it's possible. But I was under the impression that LV had never told anybody about his horcruxes. B) From what we've heard about Regulus, he doesn't seem that intelligent, but it's possible - even probable - that our view of Regulus is very skewed because we've seen him only from Sirius' eyes. C) Who would he have been telling that would have allowed Regulus to overhear? And D) Along the same lines as B.

It's true that it may be dangerous to destroy a Horcrux, or possibly LV has just put extra protection on each of his Horcruxes as more deterrant to potential enemies. Either way, Harry's probably not prepared for it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2006, 04:16:07 PM »

Shelly, about your B), I think that's very true. We've barely seen Regulus, and it as only through his brother's eyes. Not really the best way to get to know him, eh?

My one reason for thinking it might be someone(s) besides Regulus is that the tone of the note left was a great deal more refined and calm than I'd have imagined someone of the Black family as being. If that makes sense.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2006, 07:44:12 PM »

Re: destroying horcruxes -- do we know whether Dumbledore's blackened hand was the result of trying to destroy the horcrux or if it was the result of trying to obtain the horcrux?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2006, 01:54:39 PM »

Good question, Cho! We never really know.

This is why you shouldn't play things close to the chest if you're the only one that knows what's going on! 'Cause then you'll die and your poor protege will be ALL ALONE.

*ahem*

2007 for book 7? I don't think I can stand the wait.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2006, 01:05:36 AM »

I really like the "RAB = R and B" thing.  Maybe some kind of nicknames were used?  Like Moony and Wormtail and Padfoot and Prongs, that would be MWPP and I don't think anybody got that when they first read it (at least, I didn't).

Shame, really.  It gets harder and harder to surprise us, the more JKR writes.  And yet she can't do something too unexpected, or she'll chase off her core audience -- the diehard fans like us who know these characters like old friends.

On to less depressing subject matter:  What's inside the locket?  It's "heavy", what could it possibly be holding?  (Please, please, please, Jo, don't let it be a body part.)
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2006, 08:24:08 AM »

A tiny piece of dark matter that will suck in the universe and destroy it! AHAHAHAH!!

Okay, seriously, no idea. What if it's a memory?
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