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Author Topic: Horcruxes speculation thread  (Read 1454 times)

Ping

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Horcruxes speculation thread
« on: July 17, 2005, 07:02:12 PM »

Something of Godric Gryffindor's? Was I the only one who thought, not of the sword, but of his hat?
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Heather

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 07:04:20 PM »

That bothered me too.  I remembered the sorting hat belonging to GG.  That would be a wonderful horcrux.  Voldy could use his spirit to find his followers and sort them into Slytherin.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2005, 07:51:05 AM »

It would certainly explain why the hat continued to make Slytherin the most nasty bunch of people, and why those who went bad the first time around were all, or mostly, Slytherin, or at least those who were part of the school from that point on. This is something my friends have complained about, and this would certainly explain it.

And I remember Mr. Weasley saying to be leery of things you can't see the brains of, and the Hat has always made me think of that and wonder.

But why would it sing about being united and the school being in danger, if it really had Voldemort's soul in it? Just to continue pretending? I don't know!!! *vibrates* When does book seven come out????
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Christine

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 08:05:46 AM »

But how could YKW make the hat or the sword into a Horcrux with them under Dumbledore's watch?  Dumbledore would have been watching them like a hawk if he thought that Voldy might try and tamper with them.

It would help if we knew exactly how this Horcrux stuff worked.  If you could have someone else make it for you, I suppose he could have delegated the task to Snape.  But maybe you have to make it yourself.   
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 08:23:44 AM »

I would think you have to make it yourself, with your victim right near by. It does seem improbable, though.

Do you suppose that Harry could actually be a Horcrux? Accidentally, but if Voldy was trying to make one, and some of his soul got into Harry....
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Christine

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 08:28:18 AM »

Oh man, scary thought! *cover ears*  j/k

I suppose it is possible.  But didn't Dumbledore say that making a Horcrux of a living thing is dangerous?  I don't think he would have risked it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 08:53:42 AM »

i doub voldy would want his worst enemy having part of his soul, then again can you make a horcrux by accident. he had just killed two people so wouldn't his soul have split, actually i don't get the whole soul splitting thing. Voldy's killed more than seven people so won't he have more than seven horcruxes and doesn't that mean that every who kills... oh never mind, how confusing!
as for the sorting hat, it wanted harry to go to slytherin, was that voldy trying to turn harry to the badside?
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Christine

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 11:13:13 AM »

I don't think that when you kill someone your soul has to split and make a Horcrux.  The impression I got was that, when you kill someone, you have say a spell or something that makes your soul split to make a Horcrux.  Killing someone enables your soul to split into a Horcrux, but it doesn't mean you have to make one.  But I could very well be wrong.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2005, 12:25:59 PM »

Christine, I think you're right. I would imagine that he had to prepare everything in advance, so that, when the time to kill came, the spell would be ready to go.

I don't know if it would be a complete Horcrux, since obviously it went wrong. But if he was planning on transfering some of his soul, and we know that Harry got some of his powers....
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2005, 03:57:13 PM »

Could Harry's scar be a Horcrux?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2005, 04:43:23 PM »

What about Snape , I mean i know it sounds farfetched but when harry first saw snape his scar hurt, could that be a sign?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 05:27:51 PM »

I think that was because Quirrel was talking to him and had his Voldy-infested head facing Harry.
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Heather

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2005, 06:54:02 PM »

Voldy infested head . . . you make me laugh  :roll:

I don't thiink Voldy would have given part of his spirit to Snape (but that could be why he trusts him) because, as Slughorn said, it is not advisable to give part of your soul to something mobile/that can be killed/moved, etc.  The question about the scar was more along the lines of whether the scar could be an inadvertent horcrux.  I doubt it is, though, for the same reasons stated for Snape above.

I speculate that the cup we saw Mundugus selling is a hint as to where one of the horcruxes may be.  If R.A.B. is Reg. Black, then it would not be a stretch for the horcruxes from the slimy green pensive to be hidden at 12 Grimmauld Place (or stolen by Mundungus).  The fact that Harry saw Mundungus selling things from Sirius's house has to be more than just showing Mundungus is a horse's rear end.  I have a feeling it will tie into the search for the Horcruxes (grail, destruction of the ring = whoops, sorry, too many familiar themes coming together).
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2005, 11:50:24 AM »

But I thought that the cup Mundungus was selling had the Black family crest on it.  Didin't the Horcrux cup have a badger on it, for Helga Hufflepuff?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2005, 12:51:04 PM »

Yes, I think you're right. And was silver, not gold.
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Angelina Tonks

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2005, 01:59:11 PM »

When horcruxes are destroyed, is the pat of the soul destroyed as well, or does it just float around? I know that sounds a bit strange, but when Voldemort tried to kill Harry and the spell was reversed on him, his soul still survived, didn't it? Does that mean the soul pieces fly back to Voldemort or something?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2005, 03:41:32 PM »

The impression I got was that the piece of soul is destroyed when a Horcrux is destroyed. Voldemort didn't die because not all of his soul was gone, and he was only going to split it, not put all of it into whatever item he had set aside.

So the next question I have is this: If Harry is the Horcrux, can he survive and still get the bit of soul out of him?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2005, 04:29:34 PM »

I'm glad I am not the only one who thought one of the Horcruxes might be in Harry, though I think it unlikely. The only reason I see Rowling doing this would be so she ends the books with Harry dying. I still think nothing of Gryffindor has an Horcrux except maybe at Gryffindow Hollow. Most likely it is in somehting of Ravenclaw origin.

Here is my take on it.

Three have been destroyed. The Diary by HP, The Ring by AD and the Locket by the mysterious RAB

4 remain

One in Voldemort himself
One in Hupplepuf Goblet
One in Nagini (maybe? This was unclear to me first they say it might be there then it might not be?
Last one = unknown possibly a Ravenclaw Item or a Gryffindor item (The latter seems unlikely to me as Voldemort never had access to Dumbeldore's office where both the sword and the Hat reside.

Don't know if I got that right, the whole Horcruxes thing was rather confusing if you ask me.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2005, 05:18:14 PM »

Also, I'd say it's possible that the locket owned by R.A.B. has not been destroyed. If that is the case, Harry will have to find that one as well and make sure it's been eliminated.

I doubt Harry is a Horcrux, myself, but just to play Devil's Advocate here... it would explain why Snape and the other Death Eaters were ordered not to kill Harry. YKW has always insisted on killing Harry himself, and not allowing anyone else to touch him. While this could just be a matter of pride, it would also make sense if Harry was a Horcrux, because perhaps YKW can salvage that bit of his spirit if he himself kill Harry.

Can you imagine what the final battle would be like if that were the case? Say Harry had fought YKW, thinking that the only bit of soul left was inside his enemy. Finally, Harry deals a killing blow, but YKW doesn't die, and Harry realizes that the only way to kill him is to die himself. It would make sense, also, because it would be an almost perfect defense for YKW-- if Harry is the only one who can kill YKW, but Harry has to die before YKW can be killed, well, that's something of a Catch-22, isn't it?

Also, just to add more confusion to the mix--are we absolutely sure there are only seven Horcruxes? Yes, Tom Riddle expressed his interest in having seven, but that doesn't mean he stuck to that plan.
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Heather

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2005, 08:07:31 PM »

Would the Riddle House be too much a stretch to be a Horcrux?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2005, 10:59:09 AM »

I don't know, I would find it to be almost too odd for the OoP to be in the Grimmauld House and not sense, somehow, how much of Voldemort really lived in it (assuming it really was a soul-bearing object).  It is possible, but for some reason I picture the horcruxes being smaller, more treasurable items.  However I know as much about horcruxes as the rest of us, maybe even less as I was reading so fast from excitement that I may have missed something... *mental note to re-read book ASAP*

I just don't get the feeling that any powerful wizard who isn't oblivious could have been very close to one of LV's horcruxes and not felt it.  Or has there been an instance in which this has happened? That I have forggotten and would prove my theory wrong? I'm not sure... Surely though Dumbledore would have sensed LV's mark on the Grimmauld Place estate, seeing as how Dumbledore could sense the presence of magic in the cave with Harry.  Do you agree?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2005, 11:10:25 AM »

Well, he didn't, as far as we know, sense anything sinister about the diary's presence in his school, where it seemed his power base was much stronger. So I think it might be something that, if you don't know it's there, or you don't know to look for it, you won't be able to find it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2005, 11:29:23 AM »

But also, the diary was never in very close proximity to Dumbledore.  Hogwarts is a big place.

I think Sirius might be just a little confused on something.  Heather was talking about the possibility of the Riddle house being a Horcrux.  The Riddle house was Voldemort's father's house, not Grimmauld Place, which was Sirius' house.  But I do agree, a house seems too big to be a Horcrux.

So the next question I have is this: If Harry is the Horcrux, can he survive and still get the bit of soul out of him?

I don't see how it would be possible for Harry to survive if he is indeed a Horcrux.  All the other Horcruxes had to be destroyed to get rid of Voldy's soul.  But it may be different with Harry, since he also has his own soul; the other Horcruxes were just inanimate objects.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2005, 12:01:21 PM »

Well, the ring wasn't destroyed. It had a crack, but it wasn't totally destroyed. Maybe his scar will just get bigger?

Oh, and it's time for some points!

5 points to Angelina, Sirius, ARR, and Shelly.
10 points to Heather, Christine, and Willow. :)
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2005, 12:45:47 PM »

Wasn't there a locket in the Black house? It's been so long since I've read OotP but I thought I had remembered reading something about a locket that if put around the neck it would posses your soul. 

So if the speculation is true that R.A.B was Sirius's brother then it would make sense that he placed the item in the Black home for safe keeping.  Who would think to check there?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2005, 12:52:53 PM »

Hmm... I don't remember anything about a locket from OotP, but I forget things easily.  I'll have to look that up.

Well, the ring wasn't destroyed. It had a crack, but it wasn't totally destroyed.

Yes, but at the end of Chapter 13 Harry notices that the ring isn't in Dumbledore's office anymore.  Couldn't he have totally destroyed the ring, and that's why it was gone? 
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2005, 12:55:58 PM »

I thought Dumbledore had said the ring was destroyed.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2005, 01:02:17 PM »

He did say that, but I think that what Ping was getting at was that maybe the Horcruxes didn't have to be totally destroyed to get the piece of the soul out, just damaged.  If they have to be completely destroyed, and Harry is a Horcrux, then it isn't very good for him, is it?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2005, 03:49:32 PM »

Thanks for correcting me, Christine. Not entirely sure how I messed that up... Something I tend to do more and more frequently after staying up late reading HP books.  Last night was especially late  :)

I think it's quite interesting, the idea of Harry himself being a Horcrux.  I believe, however, that according to the Prophecy (assuming we are still following it.... after Dumbledore's 20 minute lecture on its validity...), Harry will be able to live, even after Voldemort dies.  Which would mean that to destroy a Horcrux (assuming Harry IS one), the object does not have to be COMPELTELY destoryed.  Perhaps something painful in which Harry would cleanse his soul of Voldemort totally, and lose some of his particularly mysterious talents (parsletongue...), but all in all ending up rid of Voldemort.  I can see JK doing this, in order for Harry to rid himself of evil, he must endure some pain, make a full committment to his task, and be willing to sacrafice some talents...
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2005, 11:42:30 PM »

Incidentally, there was a brief mention of a locket in OotP--while they were cleaning out a cabinet, it mentions in passing "A heavy locket that none of them could open," which lends new power to the Regulus Black theory--if he had stolen the original locket, then Grimmauld Place would have been an ideal location to keep it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2005, 07:42:18 AM »

Which takes us back to Mundungus - can't you just imagine if he has stolen it (like he did other artifacts from the house) and sold it to someone?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2005, 02:00:21 AM »

That's just brilliant. Especially the Mundungus angle. Great find there.  Goes to reread OotP.  :o
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2005, 09:31:14 AM »

What about Lucius Malfoy? After all, he did have Riddle's diary, and has more of Voldemort's "old school things" according to Dumbledore. And Malfoy said:
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'Father's got some very valuable Dark Arts stuff. But luckily, we've got our own secret chamber under the drawing-room floor - '

Valuable Dark Arts stuff as in horcruxes? Voldemort would probably want them scattered though. Hmm...
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2005, 10:33:43 PM »

Is there anything at Hogwarts which we are overlooking which could be a Horcrux?

Also, something to think about - if Lucius or the Blacks possessed any of the horcruxes, Narcissa could become key.  We have seen that her love for her son (and desire to protect him) is stronger than her loyalty or fear of YKW.  She could become an ally to Harry with respect to locating these objects if it would mean she could save Draco.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2006, 07:49:25 PM »

Earlier I posted,

Quote
That bothered me too.  I remembered the sorting hat belonging to GG.  That would be a wonderful horcrux.  Voldy could use his spirit to find his followers and sort them into Slytherin.


 JKR has answered my thought on her site saying it isn't.  Oh well -- -Off to look for more horcuxes
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2006, 05:55:32 AM »

Still think it's Harry. I think it would be very fitting. *crosses arms and pouts*

;)
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2006, 06:21:05 PM »

Your theory plays out well with the wording of the prophecy
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2006, 06:29:34 PM »

Especially since we know the last word of the seventh book.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2006, 10:12:06 AM »

I really dislike the Harry-as-the-horcrux theory because it just doesn't seem like Voldemort has had an *opportunity* to make him the horcrux.  I mean, one assumes that this isn't something he can do from a distance, and we've repeatedly seen the scenes of the death Harry's parents, and in those scenes, Voldemort comes straight for Harry to kill him, thereby causing the spell rebound which crippled V.
And somehow, it just doesn't seem plausible that Voldemort got to Harry before killing his parents.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2006, 02:27:36 PM »

I was just wondering: it would be interesting to know just who LV killed to make the horcruxes, then maybe there would be a pattern... I don't know, but could we have heard something about these horcruxes when we hear about certain people LV has killed? *grabs blindly at any strand of anything that could help*
Is there any slight chance that those who were Avada Kedavra'd by LV and were mentioned in the books are related to any of the horcruxes?

Or...

... what if the most unlikely people have a horcrux? Like the Weasleys? It could have been planted there years ago... *Comes up with an absurd theory to do with Peter Pettigrew* Never mind.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2006, 07:50:02 AM »

Peronally, I can't escape the idea that Harry is a horcrux, and everything I try to come up with against the idea just supports it.

LV liked Horcruxes (or Horcrix, depending on your preferred spelling). He liked to make them at significant times, or so we've been told. I mean, this is a piece of his soul. He won't want to split it for just anybody. So here's this Harry Potter, prophesied to overthrow him. Unlikely, but best to nip these things in the bud. Besides, those Potters, always getting in the way. Such a kill as the infant would be well worth developing a horcrux for. So he gets everything ready. He's all set. He's killed the parents, now for the child. Unleash of spell and --- pppfffftt...

No such thing had ever happened before in the history of magic, so far as we know. Who's to say that the spells he had prepared for the Horcrux didn't get unleashed and tie a bit of him into the body of Harry Potter? It makes sense. It would explain quite obviously why some of Voldemort's powers passed to Harry, and why Voldy can get into his mind so easily--because he's already there!

But...but...what if... this just occured to me. What if, because of all the raw magic unleashed and behaving unpredictably, some of Harry's soul ended up in LV? Like a double-swap? Which is why neither can fully live while the other's around? Maybe?

Hrrrm. I don't know what I think about that side of things, but I'm pretty positive on the Harrycrux theory.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2006, 01:10:32 PM »

If we say the attempt to turn Harry into the horcrux was unsuccessful...having a baby's corpse as your horcrux...a little sketchy to me.  With Nagini, she's almost like a spirit now, so would Harry also have been "enslaved" (for lack of a better term) if he'd been successfully turned into a horcrux?
If we're going with a successful attempt to make Harry a horcrux...with Voldemort inside of her, Nagini doesn't have free will anymore, but Harry does. The book was also under Voldemort spirit part's power and control.

But I think I read somewhere that JKR had let it drop that there were hints in OotP, or am I just confusing speculation with reported facts?

Regardless, I reread the first part of OotP, concentrating on 12 Grimmauld Place, and here are some things I found interesting:

p. 77 - Sirius's mother sounds *terrifying*, and the portrait's certainly not flattering.  Most people have portraits taken of themselves during the high periods of their life, not when they're old, drooling, and insane.  You think she went insane over time? Do portraits age with their owners? We know that photos don't, but photos also don't talk. 

p. 83 - Mundungus is looking at a solid silver goblet, bearing the Black family crest.  Mundugus says the crest will come off, but it doesn't, since Harry recognizes it in HBP.  In addition, all pure blood families are related, wonder how the Blacks are related to the Gaunts and if they share any family treasures?  (And UGH! Tonks is first cousins with Malfoy! Wonder if she has any stories on him being a brat as a kid.)

p. 111 - Uncle Alphard.  Wonder if he's important. We know his initials are at least AB.  It's a long shot, but could Alphard be his middle name?

p. 116 - Fred and George sneaking off with little things to experiment with.  Could they have inadvertently picked something up?
p. 117 - All those sticky charms! If something in the house is a valuable relic, surely there would be charms to keep people from walking away with them? And of course, Kreacher would probably have "saved" it, but wonder if he would be damaged by any curses on it. 

And another thing, Dumbledore is the secret keeper for the OotP.  Now that he's dead, I REALLY want to know the answer to that FAQ poll!
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2006, 09:58:50 PM »

I don't think Voldy intended to make Harry a horcrux, just to use killing him as a chance to make one. 'Cause yeah, ew.

I'll try to comment on the rest in a bit, but now I have to go to bed or I'm really really really gonna regret it tomorrow.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2006, 09:49:18 AM »

Okay.  Some thoughts on this whole thing:

Killings that LV used to make horcruxes out of: 
1) I imagine that killing his father/grandparents would have been a significant killing (whether or not he knew about horcruxes by then would be a different story, but if he did, he'd probably make one then);
2) I don't recall -- did he return to his mother's house and kill his uncle (forget his name, now)?  If so, that might have been a significant killing worthy of a horcrux.
3) I thought about the possibility of James and Lily, but it would make more sense for him to plan to make a horcrux when killing Harry.  However, I would imagine that he would have made his 6 horcruxes well before that time.
4) Perhaps he made a horcrux when he killed that lady who owned the teacup from Helga Hufflepuff (or whatever it was she owned.  My memory is so bad these days).

I doubt that the Malfoys had more than one horcrux.  My impression was that Lucius wasn't even aware that the diary was a horcrux -- he just thought it was something with dark magic in it.

A question about horcruxes that I think I meant to ask earlier but may have forgotten to do:  how do horcruxes work?  I mean, what does it mean to split up your soul and store it in something?  Did LV have to reclaim one of his horcruxes when he "came back to life"?  If so, what happens to the horcrux then?  Is the soul then no longer in the object?   

I like the idea of Mundungus having made off with something. 

Er, that's it for now.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2006, 09:32:23 PM »

1) I imagine that killing his father/grandparents would have been a significant killing (whether or not he knew about horcruxes by then would be a different story, but if he did, he'd probably make one then);
2) I don't recall -- did he return to his mother's house and kill his uncle (forget his name, now)?  If so, that might have been a significant killing worthy of a horcrux.
3) I thought about the possibility of James and Lily, but it would make more sense for him to plan to make a horcrux when killing Harry.  However, I would imagine that he would have made his 6 horcruxes well before that time.

A question about horcruxes that I think I meant to ask earlier but may have forgotten to do:  how do horcruxes work?  I mean, what does it mean to split up your soul and store it in something?  Did LV have to reclaim one of his horcruxes when he "came back to life"?  If so, what happens to the horcrux then?  Is the soul then no longer in the object?   
As for #2, he didn't kill his uncle, he changed his uncle's memory so his uncle would take the blame for killing his grandparents and parent. 
And horcruxes splits your soul so that part of you will always go on living, and that part of you can make dastardly plots to claim a body that will alow you to come back to "life".  And I don't think he had to claim a horcrux toc ome back to life in Goblet of Fire, because he had always been alive.  So we don't know what happens to a claimed horcrux yet, only what happens to an active one, as seen in CoS.  The soul piece stayed in the object until it was killed.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2006, 04:27:42 PM »

Quote
And I don't think he had to claim a horcrux toc ome back to life in Goblet of Fire, because he had always been alive.

I guess this is the part I'm confused about.  Do we know for sure that he hadn't 'used' one of his horcruxes to come back to life?  I know in GoF he says that his soul was ripped from his body.  Does that mean that that 1/7th of a soul didn't die when the killing curse rebounded onto him?  I guess I've wondered if that meant something else.  Am I even making any sense, here?  I feel like I'm sort of babbling, but it seems to me that JKR has never really given us a mechanism for one's soul being ripped from one's body but being able to inhabit other being's bodies until it can find one for itself again.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2006, 11:23:02 AM »

You're right, I don't think it's clearly explained. Riddle in the diary knew that he was not the original, but a copy, as it were.

It's a fairly common device in stories with wizards that they have taken part of their soul and hid it somewhere else, so that they cannot be killed. I think the horcruxes are like that. Because his soul isn't all in one place, when it was ripped from his body by the backlash of the curse-gone-wrong, it couldn't move on, but stuck around until he could find a way to get at least some sort of body.

Ooooo, thought! So Dumbledore, we know, looked triumphant when he found out that LV had some of Harry's blood, right? What if that's because Harry WAS a horcrux, and this meant that LV had that part of his soul back without having had to kill Harry? Which also gives Dumbledore one less horcrux to worry about. Maybe? I dunno, seems that if Harry was a horcrux, and that did it, it would have taken away his connection with LV, which we know didn't happen. Hrmmmm. Thoughts? I don't know. It's a possibility, but ... I don't know!
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2006, 12:42:57 AM »

All righty, re-reading Book 2.
Does anyone remember how old Tom was in Slughorn's memory? Because on p. 313 of Book 2, it says "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work."

Now assuming he's not lying (which is a HUGE assumption), it sounds like he made the horcrux when he was 16 (quite an impressive feat), and probably did so out of Moaning Myrtle's death.  Sounds like his first murder, since he was 16 the summer he dropped by the orphanage and proceeded onto the Gaunts, where he made his next horcrux.

In addition, he talks about how he grows stronger by feeding off Ginny --> she's getting paler, weaker, and he's starting to take physical form.  Do you think it works this way with all of the horcruxes?  Could the ring Dumbledore was wearing have possessed him had he not been such a strong wizard?

And it's interesting that Harry addresses Tom as if he's Voldemort, because he's not. He's Voldemort at 16, which is a very different thing, yet Harry says, "he still frightens you now, wherever you're hiding these days --".  But Tom-the-horcrux is frozen in time, and the only thing he knows about the present is what others tell him.  Kind of makes me wonder how much independent thought a horcrux has, what a horcrux would do if he was told (and believed) that the current incarnation of Voldemort was out to destroy him. 

I'm also confused about why the fact that Harry's mother died to save him is a countercharm.  Does anyone know exactly what a charm is? I mean, if charms are that important, than Neville's grandmother should be faulted even more for discouraging him from taking it (in the book, McGonagall says that his grandmother was abysmal at charms and that's why she didn't want him taking it).  And as I read on mugglenet.com, Voldemort repeatedly says that Lily didn't have to die.  *Why* didn't Lily have to die? I think that's a really important question, and I've heard all sort of wild theories.

I also want to know why the basilik's fang "killed" the horcrux.  Seems kind of an easy way to destroy a horcrux.  You'd of thought that Voldemort would've made it more impervious to various devices of destruction. 

And as Riddle points out...why do he and Harry look alike? just a coincidence? Or more, considering Harry's bright green eyes and Voldemort's green magic?

Also, I'm with Ping, I don't get why people don't call him Tom Riddle anymore, why they ever agreed to start calling him Voldemort. Pretentious little git.

One last thing...Poor Ginny! That's an awful lot for an 11 year old to go through, and she's an awfully *young* 11...crying at the drop of a hat, still holding onto her mum's hand in public... I'm so glad to see that she's grown up well.   :)
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2006, 11:15:34 PM »

Quote
I also want to know why the basilik's fang "killed" the horcrux.  Seems kind of an easy way to destroy a horcrux.  You'd of thought that Voldemort would've made it more impervious to various devices of destruction.

I think this has a lot to do with who was wielding the fang.

Quote
Also, I'm with Ping, I don't get why people don't call him Tom Riddle anymore, why they ever agreed to start calling him Voldemort. Pretentious little git.

My guess would be something either along the lines of a threat if anyone dared to call him by his "given" name, or.... perhaps because he only really started taking credit for his evil deeds by the name Voldemort?  For example, nobody really fears the name Usama, but Osama......

Quote
Kind of makes me wonder how much independent thought a horcrux has, what a horcrux would do if he was told (and believed) that the current incarnation of Voldemort was out to destroy him.

And if Harry is a horcrux..... oooo, that just brings up all *sorts* of delicious little questions..... 
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2006, 12:32:37 PM »

To play devil's advocate to this whole "Harry is a horcrux" theory, I would venture to say that a horcrux having "independent" thoughts is one thing, but to have a horcrux, namely Harry, be totally opposed to something that seems fundamental to the soul part that is inside the horcrux (and I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion, here, of whether someone's soul can really be fundamentally evil, blah blah blah.  Just take this as an assumption for the sake of this discussion).  I do not think that it is just a personal thing (i.e., you killed my parents, you're after me, I'm gonnna get you); I think Harry is fundamentally opposed to LV and all that he stands for/is about.  Is it possible to be a horcrux and be so totally untouched by all that the soul-part in you stands for?  Or even more than untouched, to be totally opposed to it??
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2006, 04:47:29 PM »

I don't believe that Harry is a Horcrux.  I think he see's LV somewhat in the same light as his aunt, uncle and cousin.  Not saying they are pure evil, but how people who are stronger, or believe to have more power than someone else tend to use that fear to over power someone.  So in a sense they are evil.  Since Harry was bullied most of his life and the only time he was ever really accepted was when he was in the Wizarding world.  I for one would want to preserve that world as long as I could if it was the one place I could go for peace and not feel like too much of a freak.


I don't think a person could be a horcrux it woud be too difficult for a body to keep two souls or even one whole one and a part of another without something going wrong.  How could LV live inside of Harry with his ability to love anyway?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2006, 08:39:10 AM »

I wonder if another horcrux will have the power of the diary.  Remember, through the diary, Riddle was able to possess and control Jenny.  I am not sure if Riddle was able to do that b/c of the unique nature of the diary, or because it was a horcrux.  However, if a horcrux would allow the soul (or portion thereof) contained within it to still exert control on the outside world, then we need to look at strategic placement of the horcuxes.  YKW would want to have them in safe places, but in places where they could be useful (like the MOM?).  Any thoughts?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2006, 11:38:45 AM »

Well, the diary only exerted control over Ginny because she allowed it to.  If she had been smarter (no knock on her; she was only 11, I believe), she would have been more wary and it wouldn't have exerted control over her.  It didn't seem like it was the diary itself that took control over her; rather it was her pouring out all her heart and feelings into it that did that.  If that's how horcruxes would work, then I would think it would take more than simply strategic placement to exert control over others.

But then again, what do I know....?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2006, 02:14:36 AM »

Is it possible that Harry's *scar*, not Harry himself, is the last horcrux?

From jkrowling.net FAQ:  "What would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?"

The answer was "It would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably."  JKR also said that she couldn't answer the question fully until Book 7 was completed.

This may explain why Harry's scar (specifically, the scar) hurts whenever YKW is feeling strong emotion, or is nearby.  I imagine horcruxes probably get warmer or shimmer or something when their maker is close by.

Perhaps it was made accidentally?  Can horcruxes be made by accident (once you've split your soul, maybe it becomes so weak it is possible to tear on its own)?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2006, 11:27:43 PM »

The scar could be a possible one.  I'm just wondering though, I doubt it will be answered, is how do you make a horcrux? I don't mean in detail, more like do you have to have a specific object in mind while creating one or is it just whatever is inside.


Hmm... so if the Diary was a Horcrux, does that mean that Tom killed his first person when he was 16 or however old he was?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2006, 02:12:28 AM »

I'm not entirely decided whether I think Harry is a horcrux or not, but I'm leaning toward 'yes.' The biggest argument I can think of to support this is that LV has repeatedly insisted upon being the person to kill Harry. In GoF, he screams something to the effect of "Do not touch him, I will kill him, he is mine!" In OoP, the Death Eaters reveal that they were all ordered not to kill Harry. What possible reason could there be for that? Some might argue that it's just for LV's vindication and revenge, but I think it's because he has a way to retrieve the last portion of his soul stored within Harry.

As for Harry's ability to love, and whether or not it would have been diminished in the presence of YKW's soul, haven't we seen Harry having angry thoughts? Feeling vengeful, and even hateful? We've also seen the connection between Harry and LV, which is mysteriously related to the failed avada kedavra curse. Could that "connection" not be the bit of YKW's soul within Harry?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2006, 01:13:41 PM »

Quote
As for Harry's ability to love, and whether or not it would have been diminished in the presence of YKW's soul, haven't we seen Harry having angry thoughts? Feeling vengeful, and even hateful?

Well, yes, we have seen him hateful, vengeful, etc.  But, honestly, wouldn't you?  Wouldn't you have hateful, vengeful thoughts to the person who directly killed your mom and dad, indirectly is responsible for the deaths of scores (hundreds?  thousands?) of other people, and who is out to get you?  I mean, isn't it only natural that he would hate LV and want revenge on them?  Isn't it only natural that he would hate Bellatrix and want revenge on her for "killing" Sirius?  Isn't it natural that he would hate Snape for, well, being Snape? 

I guess it would take more than his having experienced hateful thoughts to convince me that he's a horcrux.  So far, that all just makes him seem like a normal, red-blooded, human boy.

Your post raises an interesting question for me, though, Shelly:  How does one "retrieve" one's soul from a horcrux?  Only by destroying it?   
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2006, 02:17:07 PM »

Maybe you don't have to take all of your soul out of the Horcrux.  Maybe it's like a savings account; you take a bit as you need it, and leave the rest alone.

Quote
SeaShelly:  LV has repeatedly insisted upon being the person to kill Harry. In GoF, he screams something to the effect of "Do not touch him, I will kill him, he is mine!" In OoP, the Death Eaters reveal that they were all ordered not to kill Harry. What possible reason could there be for that? Some might argue that it's just for LV's vindication and revenge, but I think it's because he has a way to retrieve the last portion of his soul stored within Harry.

See my previous post.

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2006, 07:17:20 PM »

Susan, I don't think Harry's scar can be the horcrux.  A horcrux must be made in conjunction with a killing, and the scar was formed when LV attempted to kill Harry but failed.  If it were a horcrux, it would have to be the result of Lily's death.  But we've always been told that the scar was left there after the killing curse rebounded onto LV.

I wonder, however, there is something to the scar being a "quasi" horcrux -- that is, that the failure of the killing curse made the scar an inadvertent horcrux.  So, only part of LV's soul (perhaps the part that speaks parseltongue and a few other things) is in the scar.  I don't know if it's possible to accidentally create a horcrux (that would seem rather dangerous to me), but since Harry's survival of the curse was a once in a lifetime event, who knows what could have happened there? 

//blink blink// 

Yeah, I don't like the idea either. 
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2006, 03:32:16 AM »

Quote
If it were a horcrux, it would have to be the result of Lily's death.  But we've always been told that the scar was left there after the killing curse rebounded onto LV.

"We've always been told", yes.  But the only people who know for certain are Harry, who was too young to remember; Lily, who died before she could tell anyone about it; and LV himself, who ... well, he's not trustworthy, and he probably hasn't regaled barrooms with tales of his failure.

How do we know that Voldy pulled Kedavra on Harry, anyway?  I just realized that -- was somebody there, that hasn't been mentioned yet?  The story was passed around the wizarding world before Harry even got there.  Who started the story?

I suspect it went something like this:  LV aimed for Harry, Lily jumped in front, Lily died and LV gets tossed backwards.  When the smoke clears LV is gone and Harry has a scar.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2006, 03:49:50 PM »

Quote
"quasi" horcrux

Actually, that's kind of what I'm going for. I don't think Harry is a full horcrux, but we've seen that he has aspects of LV.

When will book 7 be out? *longing sigh*

Quote
I suspect it went something like this:  LV aimed for Harry, Lily jumped in front, Lily died and LV gets tossed backwards.  When the smoke clears LV is gone and Harry has a scar.

Actually, from what Harry remembers, there was a conversation between Lily and LV. I don't think she jumped at the last minute, I think she was shielding him already when LV killed her to get her out of the way. I could so easily be wrong. :D
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2006, 06:40:04 PM »

Well, we know the Avada Kedavra curse produces green light; we know that Harry has some memory of a flash of green light; he seems to hear/recall his mother, already standing in front of Harry, being killed by LV ("Step aside, silly girl..."), so she can't have just "jumped" in front of him.

Are you suggesting that LV never even aimed for Harry??  That would be, well, quite a turn of events.  That would mean that Harry wasn't "The Boy Who Lived."  I think even that is a bit too much of a complicated (convoluted?) plot for JKR to pull.  There are some things that she tends to be pretty straightfoward about, and I would suspect that this is one of them....
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2006, 08:04:31 PM »

Oh, I think he tried to kill Harry, and that's where it backfired. Lily had already died trying to save him, which is why the curse backfired.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2006, 12:13:29 AM »

Er, sorry Ping.  I was replying to Susan's post before I saw yours.  I think I was trying to say the same thing that you said.

I wonder if it's possible to have a "quasi" horcrux.  I guess I'm inclined to think that the scar is exactly what JKR/Dumbledore has said it is:  a remnant of LV's failed attempt to kill Harry that resulted in a transfer of some of LV's powers.  If in fact the scar is a horcrux or a quasi-horcrux, then I would venture to guess that that was unintentional.  I can't imagine that LV actually intended to create a horcrux out of Harry's dead body (which is what he would have been left with if his curse had succeeded). 

But then that raises the question of whether one can create a horcrux unintentionally?

I suppose another possibility is that he was planning on making a horcrux out of something else with Harry's death, but since it rebounded, it made a quasi-horcrux out of Harry's scar.

....

Nope.  I still don't like it.  It's just too complicated a mechanism.  I'm going to stick with my original thought:  for as long as LV's been looking into and making horcruxes (horcruxi?), I gotta believe that he would have had his six horcruxes all made and in place long before he got to the Potters' door. 

... and that's my final answer .... for now.  :P
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2006, 07:16:46 AM »

Aaah, gotcha. :D

I guess the biggest reason it seems possible to me is that Harry DOES have some of LV's powers, which could be a representation of something of LV's soul.

I don't know if I actually believe this is what happened or not, and until JKR says one way or the other, we probably won't know. Just tossing around possibilities. :D
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2006, 12:18:09 AM »

What IS the plural form of "horcrux", anyway?

Horcruces?
Horcroi?
Horcru?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2006, 11:12:00 AM »

I believe it was written as horcruxes in the book, though one of the HP podcast folks (I forget who) insists on calling them horcrix. At least, I assume that's how he spells it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2006, 05:03:27 PM »

*laughs at the word horcrix* That sounds so strange.

Looking at thse speculations, I disagree with the Harry-is-a-horcrux theory because Voldemort heard the prophecy (from Snape) and then decided Harry was a threat to him and so set out to kill him. I doubt that Voldemort would want to put a part of his soul into the very person who was prophesised to overcome him. However, I can kind of see Harry being an accidental horcrux, but again think that this might not be true since Voldemort - according to the prophecy - marked Harry as his equal, which I take to mean the parseltongue and connection between their minds. Some people see Harry as a horcrux because Dumbledore said in HBP that Voldemort had made 5 of the 6 horcruxes before he came to Godric's Hollow, but Dumbledore also says that Nagini is a possible horcrux. If Nagini IS a horcrux, then wouldn't she have been made as one after Godric's Hollow?

Remember in OotP when Arthur Weasley is bitten by a snake and Harry sees this through the snake's eyes? Wouldn't this Snake be Nagini? From OotP, we see that Voldemort and Harry have some sort of connection. If Nagini were made a horcrux after Harry's attempted murder, then wouldn't she have a connection with Harry since the fragment of soul inside her was with Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry? This would mean that Harry would have been looking through the eyes of Nagini when Mr Weasley was bitten. 
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2006, 06:30:32 PM »

Quote
Some people see Harry as a horcrux because Dumbledore said in HBP that Voldemort had made 5 of the 6 horcruxes before he came to Godric's Hollow

Did Dumbledore really say this?  Sheesh!  You'd never know that I've read the book twice, the second time relatively recently. 

I like your thinking, Angelina, both about why Harry isn't an intentional horcrux, and about why Nagini might be.  ... Besides, how often are Dumbledore's guesses wrong?

So, basically, if Nagini is a horcrux, then Harry will have to find and destroy the other (inanimate) horcruxes, destroy Nagini as well AND destroy/defeat LV in one book??!?!  Inconceivable! 

Well, maybe not.  But that will be one action packed book.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2006, 06:34:48 PM »

I just remembered that Harry & the Weasleys found a locket amongst the junk at Grimmauld Place.  A LOCKET.

It fits, doesn't it, esp. if "R.A.B." is from the noble house of Black?

*Note to self:  must re-read OotP.  Again.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2006, 12:03:54 PM »

Yeah, the locket! There's one described in OotP as Susan says:
Quote
a heavy locket that none of them could open;
(Chapter 6, page 108 of the UK edition)
and then in HBP:
Quote
There upon the smooth crimson velvet lay a heavy golden locket.
(Chapter 20, page 409 of the UK edition)
Notice that both lockets are described as "heavy". If R.A.B. is indeed Regulus Black, then that would mean that the lockets are almost certainly the same ones. Mind you, the note in the locket Harry and Dumbledore retrieve says:
Quote
I have stolen the locket and intend to destroy it as soon as I can.
Does that mean it has already been destroyed, or did R.A.B. not manage to destroy it and die before he could? Does that mean that the locket mentioned in OotP is the same locket and still in need of being destroyed?
If the locket hasn't been destroyed, it could be anywhere: Kreacher may have it (as he tried to "save" several objects from Mrs Weasley's cleaning spree), or even Mundungus may have it, since he seems to like taking stuff from Grimmauld place.

And in reply to Cho's post, Dumbledore says to Harry in chapter 23:
Quote
"However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you."
and a few sentences later:
Quote
"I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

It certainly will be an action packed book!
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2006, 01:06:37 PM »

Quote
"I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

This is why I think Harry might have some of Voldy's soul. LV wasn't intending to make Harry a horcrux, I think, but he was intending to use Harry's death as the basis for a horcrux. So, he prepares whatever he needs to perform the spell, levels his wand and.... woops! His soul is split, his body destroyed. Life suddenly sucks.

But I could so easily be wrong. :D
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2006, 09:10:38 PM »

To answer Carolyn:
Quote
Does anyone remember how old Tom was in Slughorn's memory? Because on p. 313 of Book 2, it says "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work."

And Cho Chung:
Quote
Killings that LV used to make horcruxes out of:
1) I imagine that killing his father/grandparents would have been a significant killing (whether or not he knew about horcruxes by then would be a different story, but if he did, he'd probably make one then.

Check out pg. 369 in HBP:

"Half a dozen boys were sitting around Slughorn, all on harder or lower seats than his, and all in their mid-teens.  Harry recognized Voldemort at once... with a jolt, Harry saw that he was wearing Marvolo's gold-and-black ring; he had already killed his father."

This scene is in Slughorn's Pensieve memory, when Tom Riddle is asking about Horcruxes.

So Tom learned about Horcruxes after he had killed his father.  "Mid" teens could mean anything, though; but I would guess it would be around 15 or 16.  The diary was probably his first horcrux.




What I'm confused about is how he made the diary from Moaning Myrtle's death.  According to Myrtle's interpretation, it was the basilisk that killed her, not Tom Riddle himself.  Is it because Tom was "using" the basilisk, like a weapon, or perhaps there was another death that Tom was responsible for?



One more oddity for ya to ponder:  Tom Riddle used the basilisk fang to make a horcrux.  Harry used that same basilisk fang to destroy that same horcrux.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 09:13:44 PM by Susan Bones »
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2006, 11:38:26 PM »

Ah.  Thanks, Angelina and Susan, for the passages.  10 points to Angelina, Susan, and Ping for a very interesting discussion!

Susan, good question about the basilisk and Moaning Myrtle's death.  I suppose it would have to be that LV was controlling/commanding the basilisk, and so LV was still ultimately the one who killed her, even if it wasn't with a curse.

That's interesting that he had already killed his father before he learns about horcruxes.  So that means he must have used someone else's death to create the horcrux in the ring.  I wonder if it even matters who he killed.  This makes me wonder, again, about the Riddle House (see the Riddle House thread) and whether or not he may have hidden a horcrux there.  Perhaps that's why he returned there:  cause part of his soul was there.  Maybe he is the wealthy person who owns the house.

Angelina:  great catch on the locket thing!  That has the marks of JKR on it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2006, 07:36:29 PM »

Quote
Angelina:  great catch on the locket thing!  That has the marks of JKR on it.

er.... wha?  Look again.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2006, 10:16:37 PM »

Ooops.  Sorry, Susan.  I guess I didn't page up enough and just saw Angelina quoting you.  Heh....  :-\
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2006, 11:14:40 PM »

S'ok.  *charms*

So this locket that was found.... if it IS the same one, do you think it's been de-horcruxed yet?  Does the fact that it can't be opened hold a clue?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2006, 07:48:47 AM »

I suspect it does hold a clue.  I suspect that the fact that it can't be opened means that it's still being protected in some way, though you'd think that if dark magic were guarding it, someone who tried to open it would have been fried.

My guess is that RAB (Regulus) was able to get through all the protections that LV put up to get at the locket but could never figure out a way to get into it.  He hid it at home where he could continue to work on it and to keep an eye on it, but he died before he ever figured it out, and no one else knew it was there.

As for where it is now ... ?  Maybe what's-his-name stole it (why don't I recall his name???), maybe he left it there because it couldn't open.  I doubt that Kreacher would have taken it if it belonged to Regulus because Regulus was, in the end, a blood-traitor.  So it might still be in the house.

My guess is that book 7 sees Harry returning to Grimmauld Place, if for no other reason than that he will have no where else to go.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2006, 03:46:47 AM »

Just imagine the warm reception that Mrs. Black's portrait will have for him.

Speaking of the portrait, I have a feeling that Mrs. Black holds an important key to solving the mystery of the locket.  She no doubt watched Regulus (if Reg. is RAB) try to open it.

The place is still somewhat dangerous, isn't it?  Did the Order ever completely clean out the bad stuff?  Sirius wasn't exactly full-on the project, after all...
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2006, 05:38:28 AM »

I just thought of something that I think bears mentioning. RAB is not Regulus, at least not alone. Dumbly said that there needed to be two people to get the locket, and we saw that it was, in fact, very true. RAB, I think, is actually short for R_____ And B_____. Who these people are, I can't say. Rosier and Bode? Ron and Bellatrix? Rhythm and Blues? Maybe Regulus was a part of it, as the less powerful wizard that tagged along as a helper. Maybe he knew he was going to die and so helped in the only way he could. I don't know, but I do think it would have taken two, and the A could just as easily stand for And as it could stand for someone's middle initial.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2006, 11:28:48 AM »

Ooo, I like the idea of it being two people. The style of the letter seems too formal for what we've seen of Regulus, though it's true we've only seen him through Sirius's eye.

I'm holding out hope that RAB is one of the Burke and Borgins folks.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2006, 02:09:10 PM »

I think that RAB stands for Regulus A. Black, and the person who helped him was Kreacher (remember, it took two to get the locket from the basin). Kreacher may hate doing things that hurt LV and his rise to power, but he is still a house-elf, and his loyalty lies with the Black family. This also would give him a reason to "save" it and hide it away, especially if he knows it hasn't been destroyed yet. Also, after a Horcrux is destroyed, it lives a visible mark that shows that it has been tampered with, like the crack on the ring, and the ink spilling out of the diary. So, seeing as the locket wasn't able to be opened, it probably hasn't been destroyed. This will probably be the first Horcrux Harry is going to destroy, but I think Dumbledore failed to teach him how to destroy a Horcrux, and destroying a Horcrux can have dangerous consequences, such as Dumbledore's blackened, withered hand after destroying the ring.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2006, 03:00:08 PM »

Quote
Dumbledore failed to teach him how to destroy a Horcrux

This is so true! There are probably still sources he could learn this from, but it seems like a pretty important omission!
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Cho Chung

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2006, 01:41:55 PM »

Master, I like your thinking about RAB and Kreacher.  Shelly, I agree that the 'A' could stand for 'and'.  However, I think it more likely that it was one person who enlisted help.  Even if it does take two people to get the locket, it only takes one person to write a note.

So here's a question:  did RAB know that there was a locket in there and come to the cave prepared to leave a "decoy" locket already?  Or did RAB get in there twice?  Once to get the locket and a second time to leave the note?  If it's the first (which is my suspicion), then you would imagine it is either a) someone who was really in LV's confidences to know not only where it was but what it was; b) someone who has the same intelligence/wits as Dumbledore; c) someone who was just really lucky to have overheard LV tell someone what it was and how/where to find it; or d) a really accomplished legilimens!

I don't recall how deep in LV's confidences Regulus Black was, but I didn't think he was quite that close.  Anyone recall? 
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2006, 03:08:36 PM »

I'm trying to think of any conceivable way it could be anyone but Regulus... I think the RAB was probably a red herring to falsely lead us to Regulus. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it's just... too... obvious!

If it were Regulus (playing Devil's Advocate here) then A) it is possible that he was in LV's inner circle. I was just rereading OoP and Sirius says that Regulus joined the Death Eaters from the very beginning, so I suppose it's possible. But I was under the impression that LV had never told anybody about his horcruxes. B) From what we've heard about Regulus, he doesn't seem that intelligent, but it's possible - even probable - that our view of Regulus is very skewed because we've seen him only from Sirius' eyes. C) Who would he have been telling that would have allowed Regulus to overhear? And D) Along the same lines as B.

It's true that it may be dangerous to destroy a Horcrux, or possibly LV has just put extra protection on each of his Horcruxes as more deterrant to potential enemies. Either way, Harry's probably not prepared for it.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2006, 04:16:07 PM »

Shelly, about your B), I think that's very true. We've barely seen Regulus, and it as only through his brother's eyes. Not really the best way to get to know him, eh?

My one reason for thinking it might be someone(s) besides Regulus is that the tone of the note left was a great deal more refined and calm than I'd have imagined someone of the Black family as being. If that makes sense.
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Cho Chung

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2006, 07:44:12 PM »

Re: destroying horcruxes -- do we know whether Dumbledore's blackened hand was the result of trying to destroy the horcrux or if it was the result of trying to obtain the horcrux?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2006, 01:54:39 PM »

Good question, Cho! We never really know.

This is why you shouldn't play things close to the chest if you're the only one that knows what's going on! 'Cause then you'll die and your poor protege will be ALL ALONE.

*ahem*

2007 for book 7? I don't think I can stand the wait.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2006, 01:05:36 AM »

I really like the "RAB = R and B" thing.  Maybe some kind of nicknames were used?  Like Moony and Wormtail and Padfoot and Prongs, that would be MWPP and I don't think anybody got that when they first read it (at least, I didn't).

Shame, really.  It gets harder and harder to surprise us, the more JKR writes.  And yet she can't do something too unexpected, or she'll chase off her core audience -- the diehard fans like us who know these characters like old friends.

On to less depressing subject matter:  What's inside the locket?  It's "heavy", what could it possibly be holding?  (Please, please, please, Jo, don't let it be a body part.)
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2006, 08:24:08 AM »

A tiny piece of dark matter that will suck in the universe and destroy it! AHAHAHAH!!

Okay, seriously, no idea. What if it's a memory?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2006, 10:21:51 PM »

Erm, not to be a smart aleck here, but if it's a horcrux, wouldn't it be, um, part of LV's soul?

I guess I just assumed it was heavy because of the metal/material that it was made from.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2006, 11:10:15 PM »

Do you think the piece of his soul is a tangible thing? I kind of thought that the object was more... infused, I guess, with his soul. Which means that there could still be something of value inside the locket, and yet "contain" a piece of spirit.
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Cho Chung

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2006, 11:52:04 PM »

'Spose it's possible.  I guess I never thought that the locket itself would contain much of substance.

You know, I think that Harry is going to have to learn more about horcruxes from someone before he's really able to destroy them.  He just doesn't know enough about them.  I wonder who would be the best person to teach him about them...?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2006, 04:32:03 AM »

I'd guess Slughorn, after a bit of whining on his part.  A bit of irony there, the same man who taught LV about horcruxes teaching someone else how to undo them?

er, hold on.  I wonder where LV got his knowledge?  I mean, Sluggy just told him the basics, right, not how to actually DO the spell.  Is there a dark master somewhere, hiding?  Will Harry find him?  Is that who will teach him what he needs to know?

**bites nails, waiting for Book 7**
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2006, 04:34:40 PM »

I've got a feeling this is where the whole R.A.B. business comes in... If s/he's destroyed the locket, then Harry needs to find him/her and ask how, and ask for help on locating the other horcruxes.
Either that, or Slughorn, as Susan said. He seems to know about horcruxes - maybe he knew more than he was letting on to Riddle?
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Cho Chung

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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2007, 12:18:23 AM »

Okay.  So I finished book 6 and I've moved backwards to book 5.  I found confirmation that Nagini is really a horcrux.  Remember when Harry "dreams" that Nagini attacks Arthur Weasley?  Well, in the "dream,"  Harry was Nagini.  He was the snake gliding along hoping to be able to find the "weapon" when he comes upon Arthur.  And when Harry wakes up, his scar is excruciatingly painful.  This only happens with LV.  He was only able to get into LV's thoughts/mind.  His scar only reacts when LV is thinking/feeling/up to something.  So the connection between LV and Nagini has to be that part of LV's soul is in Nagini.

//looks around triumphantly//

Right, guys? 

//ringing silence//

//crickets chirping//


Uh ... guys?
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2007, 12:29:33 PM »

Oooh, good call, Cho! *applaud*

I put a countdown calendar on my google homepage. I really should actually preorder the book...
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2007, 02:40:09 AM »

I would prefer a different interpretation.

It has been well established that the Dark Lord can, and does, possess snakes when it suits his purposes (indeed, if I recall correctly, Albus states explicitly that the Dark Lord possesses Nagini).  My reading of the relevant passage, Cho, would be that Harry is "being" the Dark Lord possessing Nagini, hence the sense of "being" Nagini, and the headache.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2007, 03:08:39 AM »

First:

Wow, KM, long time no see! What brings you back to this neck of the web?

Next:

I'm not positive I understand you correctly, but let me see if I've got it straight. You think that Nagini is not a horcrux because the passage that Cho cited could also be an example of his ability to possess any snake, and not of his unique connection to Nagini.

But then what does that say about the connection between Harry and Voldypants in the first place? That's always been my prime indicator that Harry is a horcrux, that he shares that connection with Voldy against both their wills.
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2007, 02:13:18 PM »

SeaShelly, you're about right about what I think.  I think the having a special connection, being a Horcrux, and being possessed are three separate things.

First, one does not need to have a special connection in order to be a Horcrux.  If this wasn't the case, the Dark Lord would surely have known that he had lost a Horcrux (admittedly, this assumes that he did not know--but I will take the fact that R.A.B.'s note was still there to be found is a good sign he didn't).  More generally, I seem to recall that Albus told Harry that the Dark Lord's soul was now so well distributed that he would not notice if he lost a Horcrux.

Second, one does not need to have a special connection or be a Horcrux in order to be possessed.  Indeed, the Dark Lord has admitted that during his years in exile he frequently possessed lesser creatures, and that his preferred creature was the snake.  The converse is also true, although less interesting: obviously, you do not have to be possessed by someone in order to be a Horcrux, or have a special connection with them.

Remains the third and, perhaps, most salient question: does one need to be a Horcrux in order to have a special connection or, put another way, do Harry's and Nagini's special connections to the Dark Lord mean that they are Horcruxes?  I cannot speak to the general case.

However, I will try to address the contention that the Potter boy is one of the Dark Lord's Horcruxes.  First, if it is the case, the Dark Lord did not know it at the end of SS.  Otherwise, he would never have instructed Quirrell to kill the boy (would you trust such a clearly inferior wizard to perform powerful and destructive magic on a fragment of your soul?).  Second, if it is the case, Albus did not know it at the time of his death.  For all his soft-heartedness, I can only with difficulty imagine his allowing his pet student to run amock with a fragment of the Dark Lord's soul under his skin.

Finally, I cannot believe that the Potter boy is an "accidental" Horcrux.  From everything I've read, I have gotten the distinct impression that Horcrucifixion is an advanced and complicated piece of magic, and that one is as likely to accidentally make someone a Horcrux as to brew Felix Felicis by throwing ingredients into a pot willy-nilly.  I concede that there is only one recorded instance of Avada Kedavra backfiring, and that therefore its side effects are completely unknown, but I really do think the special connection and transferral of powers and abilities is the beginning and the end of it.

PS for SeaShelly: It's been a busy few years, but I, like everyone else around here I imagine, am starting to get seriously worked up about this next book coming out...
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Re: Horcruxes speculation thread
« Reply #100 on: July 26, 2007, 03:45:18 PM »

It is sooooo interesting to read these old posts!

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