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Author Topic: Snape  (Read 749 times)

Heather

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Snape
« on: July 17, 2005, 06:31:34 PM »

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread dealing with Snape in light of the events in HBP.  What are people's thooughts on Snape's vow to Narcissa and the way he executed it?
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SeaShelly3

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Re: Snape
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 08:18:59 PM »

I honestly thought at the beginning that he was lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix. I still thought that he truly followed Dumbledore and that he was doing a brilliant job lying. I thought he took the vow out of necessity, because it would have looked suspicious to do otherwise. I didn't know what Malfoy was supposed to be doing, so I thought he could offer to "help" or to try to help Malfoy without doing anything directly against the Order, or nothing quite so damaging.

Maybe I misread something, so I'll hold further comments until I finish rereading HBP.
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Cho Chung

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Re: Snape
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2005, 10:40:49 AM »

Yeah, Shelly.  You need to finish before you start posting in this thread.

First of all, I started suspecting early on that Snape was the HBP.  Potions?  It only made sense.  And we knew nothing of his background, so it could easily have been him.

Aside frm that, I was hoping that what Shelly said was true: that Snape wouldn't have mad an Unbreakable Vow to do something that would really hurt the Order.  But, obviously, I was wrong.

One thought I have is the possibility that he did it all under Dumbledore's orders, much like Dumbledore ordered Harry to keep making him drink the potion no matter what.  If that's true, then Dumbledore had better have something really good up his sleeve.

But back to Snape, really.  He's got to be the best double agent ever, if he really has been one all this time. 

We still don't know, do we, what specifically made Dumbledore trust him so much.
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Angelina Tonks

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Re: Snape
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 11:22:25 AM »

I was so confused about Snape when I was reading HBP. Was he a Death Eater, or was he not? Even now, although he killed Dumbledore I can't help but think that this was all part of some plan that Dumbledore had made up.

When I read him saying those words, I couldn't believe it. IIRC, Bellatrix said that you need a lot of hatred to fuel an unforgivable, so surely Snape must have hated Dumbledore enough to kill him? I don't know.
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willow

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Re: Snape
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 11:36:00 AM »

I think he is bound by his mark on his arm for a death eater, I may be wrong but there may be no hope for Snaep. Its hard to believe, other things have said otherwise. I thought Snape in POA showed he was good but maybe it was only fuelled by his hatred of sirius and maybe he knew sirus was not on the dark side.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 12:41:33 PM by willow »
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Re: Snape
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 12:32:55 PM »

Angelina, I think we're supposed to be confused. I don't think JKR has really shown, one way or another, where Snape's loyalties really are. Yes, killing Dumbledore would seem to show that, but I'm not so sure. He got very upset when Harry said he was a coward. Snape has basically lost all his friends and any hope he has of a good life, even if Voldemort is defeated. It takes a lot of bravery to do that.
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Heather

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Re: Snape
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 04:08:14 PM »

I agree that there has to be more to Snape.  There is some reason that will have to be revealed in book 7 for Dumbledore's loyalty to Snape.  Similarly, Voldy has some reason for trusting snape (as seen in the second chapter of HBP). I wonder what that reason could be as well.  I am positive the clues to the answers to these questions are in the book. 

What about the interesting parallel between YKW and Snape's lives in that they both had muggle fathers and witch mothers from pure blood families.  Based on the memories in Snape's pensive, his father obviously had problems with his mother being a witch (like Tom Riddle). 

Did anyone else find it odd that book barely covered Harry's time in Snape's DaDA class?  In the past books, there was more Snape/Harry classroom interaction.  Considering Snape finally received his coveted DaDA position, I was disappointed we didn't get to see him teaching Harry's best subject.  Further, what he taught the class (Harry) would be revealing as to his loyalties (did he really give the class the tools to defend against Voldy)?

Last thought - could Snape have been under the Imperius curse?  I doubt it b/c of the Unbreakable Vow he took, but at the same time, just a thought.
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AHD

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Re: Snape
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2005, 04:08:58 PM »



I agree with you Heather - when I read of his betrayal I was not suprised and even suspected it - although now that I have been thinking on it I don't see Dumbledore's judgement being that critically off.  I can't see the lesson of Dumbledore always 'seeing the good in someone' ending in his death. 

I also see Dumbledore being able to see the big picture when making a decision for him or Snape to die - I think this has already been mentioned, but based on what we believe with the 'Unbreakable Vow' that one of them would need to die during that confrontation - Dumbledore made the ultimate sacrifice - I always figured he would die, I just believed it would be to save Harry, not Snape.

Another thought - believing that Snape really didn't betray Dumbledore, Snape just lost the only friend that trusted him in his entire life - a very lonely prospect.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2005, 06:29:21 PM by AHD »
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SeaShelly3

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Re: Snape
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2005, 05:36:27 PM »

Just to clear up a small misunderstanding-- I have finished reading HBP, what I said was that I needed to finish REreading it... reading it for a second time. I seem to understand things better that way.

The more I think about it, the more plausible it seems that Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders. The one thing that really points me in that direction is the fact that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape. Dumbledore has said on multiple occasions that he is not afraid of death, so why would he plead for life? I was speaking with a friend about this, and he thinks that by saying "Please, Severus," Dumbledore was not saying "Please help me" or "Please don't kill me." Rather, Dumbledore was saying "Please follow through." I think someone gave this theory in the "Thoughts on HBP" thread, and I didn't think it was possible at first. But it is true that had Snape not killed Dumbledore, Snape would have died himself. The one thing that this theory does not explain is the look of hatred on Snape's face.
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AHD

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Re: Snape
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2005, 06:33:48 PM »

I think he had the look of hatred on his face becaue he hated what he had to do.
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Heather

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Re: Snape
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2005, 07:57:30 PM »

Another interesting clue into Snape and his signficance, IMHO, comes from the hang upside down curse (can't remember the name).  Harry remembered seeing his FATHER do the curse on Snape (granted, Lupin said it was popular at the time), Hermione recalled seeing the DEATH EATERS use it at the Quidditch World Cup, and Snape yelled at Harry as he was running with Draco that he had invented the curse.  If Snape invented the curse, how did it become so widely used while Snape and James were in school/how did James learn it?  I wonder if this hints to more of a backstory behind James and Snape while at Hogwarts than we have.  Also, the use of a curse which Snape invented by the Death Eaters further evidences Snape's significance to the Death Eaters (using his curse = high compliment).  I haven't had time to suss all this out in my mind, but I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts might  be.
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Marold

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Re: Snape
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2005, 12:35:20 PM »

Well I finished the book this morning around 3 or so.  I had a feeling that Dumbledore was going to die just at the beginning of chapter 3 but not at the hands of Snape.

My fiance and I were discussing this after I finished the book.  Snape had to kill Dumbledore or he would have died himself and more than likely he had to do it because he knew that Maulfoy wasn't wizard enough to do it.

I was hoping for more Snape interaction in the book but not like how it was done.  I'm going to have to reread the whole series to see if I catch anything.
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Christine

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Re: Snape
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2005, 12:47:10 PM »

I agree with Heather's  Death Eaters comment.  Having them use one of Snape's invented curses not only shows that Snape had told them of it, but that they respect Snape enough to use it.  I don't know so much about James using it, though.  Somebody could have just heard Snape use it, and then they used it, and so on and forth until the whole school knew it.  It does happen.  But we can't entirely rule out there being more story there.

The question I have is: doesn't the book say that the Half-Blood Prince was at Hogwarts 50 years ago?  Snape was a Hogwarts when James and Lily were, and that was not 50 years ago.
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Marold

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Re: Snape
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2005, 12:54:31 PM »


The question I have is: doesn't the book say that the Half-Blood Prince was at Hogwarts 50 years ago?  Snape was a Hogwarts when James and Lily were, and that was not 50 years ago.

I think that was the first publishing date on the book. I don't think the publishers of the potions books really go around and make new publications of the books.  But from what we see from Snapes little flash of memory, he might have been poor and the book was second hand, so there is the possibility that it was 50 years old.
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Marold

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Re: Snape
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2005, 01:01:15 PM »

If Dumbledore knew that the DADA job was cursed and that they were unable to keep the position for more than a year, then Dumbledore must have known that Snape would not have lasted the year and that he would have been betrayed.

This is all so mind boggling.
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Christine

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Re: Snape
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2005, 01:08:09 PM »

To me, Dumbledore doesn't seem like the kind of person that would buy into the DADA position being cursed.
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Sirius Black

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Re: Snape
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2005, 03:43:16 PM »

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't it Dumbledore who confirmed with Harry that the job was cursed (by Voldemort himself) to let a teacher hold it's position for only one year, in hopes of him being recruited to teach it eventually after running out of other options? Meaning that Dumbledore would know about the curse, and believe in it as well.  Which would mean that Dumbledore would know about Snape leaving somehow after the yerar.  I agree Marold, the thought came to me just moments ago before signing on... Weird, isn't it?  What did Dumbledore think was going to happen to Snape?  Perhaps it was all part of the plan?  Or did Dumbledore simply know Snape would be leaving to go to the Dark Side after the year? Any thoughts...?
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Re: Snape
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2005, 10:27:48 PM »


The question I have is: doesn't the book say that the Half-Blood Prince was at Hogwarts 50 years ago?  Snape was a Hogwarts when James and Lily were, and that was not 50 years ago.

I think that was the first publishing date on the book. I don't think the publishers of the potions books really go around and make new publications of the books.  But from what we see from Snapes little flash of memory, he might have been poor and the book was second hand, so there is the possibility that it was 50 years old.


I was thinking about this exact thought tonight on my way home from work - I came to the conclusion that Snape was using a used book of his mothers? (since that is who Hermione came up with when doing her research) - we already know his home life was not that great and it would not be far fetched that he would need to use second hand materials.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 10:32:17 PM by AHD »
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Christine

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Re: Snape
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2005, 06:48:11 PM »

That would explain it, AHD.  And Sirius, I don't remember reading that, but I do miss things quite often.  I'll look it up and get back to you... *reaches for HBP*
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Re: Snape
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2005, 02:23:17 AM »

This whole Sanpe thing is very strange in my opinion. I always thought he was going to proove himself to be an evil slimeball and it seems I was right but the way the whole thing played out makes it seem like it was a set up he came up with together with Dumbeldore. Wat confuses me is the unforgivable curse tha was used. If I recall correctly, you truly have to mean it for it to work. So if he has loyalty to Dumbeldore then how does he get the curse to work. If he means it then no way could they have been working together. See how it gets confusing.  ???

Maybe Dumbeldore knew what was coming and realized Snape was past saving and just used it to his advantage. He did what he did not for Harry or Snape but for Draco. Dumbeldore truly is noble this way. I really think he preferred to have Snape kill him rather than have Malfoy do it and go over to the darkside. 
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Kaz(snape rules)

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Re: Snape
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2005, 04:57:44 AM »

 I got the half blood prince right I knew it was snape all along and I showed my friends they were wrong. I have always trusted Snape and I still say He will turn out to do good in the end. He will help Harry defete Voldemort in the end. There is something about him that binds him to Harry. I dont know what but I have always thought he was there to help keep Harry safe. I still say the big show down will be with Harry, Voldermort and Snape......All I hope is that the love of my life dosn't get killed as well......sob...sob........Snape rules
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Christine

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Re: Snape
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2005, 11:35:46 AM »

I agree that Dumbledore was trying to help Draco.  You could really tell that Dumbledore was starting to get through to him with what he was telling him on the tower, because it said Draco was lowering his wand.  Then the Death Eaters came in, but you could again see that Draco had been listening because he was incapable of killing him.  I still believe that Draco will turn to the good side before the end of Book 7.


Wat confuses me is the unforgivable curse tha was used. If I recall correctly, you truly have to mean it for it to work. So if he has loyalty to Dumbeldore then how does he get the curse to work. If he means it then no way could they have been working together. See how it gets confusing. 

But couldn't he have manifested the anger to power the Unforgivable?  We already know that Snape is an excellent actor, no matter where his true loyalties lie.

I still think, though, that Snape really is in league with YKW.  If this had all been a plan of Snape and Dumbledore's, wouldn't they have let McGonagall or some other important Order member know about it so that the Order would still be willing to work with Snape?  Now there's no way the Order will continue working with him, because they can't be sure if they can trust him.
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Heather

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Re: Snape
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2005, 11:57:24 AM »

In light of everything we know now, one question keeps bothering me - why did Snape try to protect Harry from Quirrel?    The simple answer, of course, is to repay the debt to James and remain in Dumbledore's favor.  The reason this bothers me is because of the two discussions regarding Snape that Harry had with members of the Order.  The first conversation in which Harry voices his concerns after hearing Snape and Malfoy at Christmas.  In that conversation, the members of the Order express their trust in Snape.  Lupin's remarks particularly stick with me.  The second conversation, after Snape curses Dumbledore, was interesting as well.  In re-reading the conversation, there is one thing particularly absent in my mind - a mention of Lily. There is discussion about Snape/Dumbeldore/James, but no mention of Lily.  Why not mention Lily?  Snape obviously wanted to be recognized at school for his achievements.  Lily was an outstanding student who received a lot of recognition.  She and Snape had to have more interaction than simply what we saw in the Pensive where she stood up for him.  I imagine Snape would have seen her as a competitor.  I do not know why, but I am convinced that the thing that made Dumbledore believe Snape was loyal/no longer a Death Eater somehow involves Lily
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Re: Snape
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2005, 01:05:14 PM »

Didn't it say in HBP that Dumbledore trusted Snape because of the remorse he showed over his hand in James' and Lily's deaths, being the one who overheard the prophecy and reported it to Voldemort?  Or did I get that from somewhere else?  I'm confused... 
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Re: Snape
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2005, 08:39:28 PM »

It was talked about at the same time, Christine, but I'm not sure that that's really what did it. But I might be wrong, too.

I wonder, given the Mugglenet interview, if she and Snape didn't have some kind of relationship, or at least if Snape wanted to have one with her. JKR said that the director of POA seemed to guess at the direction the series was going, and the thing about Lily always seeing the good in people, or in making them see it in themselves, was the thing that most stood out to me as added from the book.
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Re: Snape
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2005, 11:24:54 AM »

I'm definitely one of those who thinks that Snape will turn out to be good and Dumbledore will come back.  (I mean, his coffin caught on fire, how much more obvious can JK get?)

But I think what gives me so much faith in Snape is his capacity to love.  He seemed clearly in love with Narcissa to me, and it also seems like he may have once had a crush on Lily.  Lily stuck up for him with James was messing with him, and he may feel a remaining obligation to her, also.  And like someone already mentioned, like Dumbledore, Lily also saw the best in people, and she saw something in Snape.  I don't think Dumbledore was wrong about him.

So...to wrap it up.  Due to his more romantical feelings, Snape has wound up protecting both Draco and Harry, 2 enemies who may or may not turn out to be friends. 
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Re: Snape
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2005, 10:39:25 PM »

I agree - I believe Snape's capacity to (and actual love) will prove his ultimate loyalty.  I also think there is a Snape/Lily connection.  While he loathe's Harry because of his similarity to his father, he has protected Harry.  I don't think it was so YKW could finish Harry off; I think it was because of Lily.  Numerous sources reference that JKR thought POA (the movie) hinted at the outcome of the series.  Lupin's description of Lily coupled with Snape's  coming to the protection of the kids in the Shrieking Shack (this is how it appears in the filiming where he shields the kids (inclucing Harry) with his body and arms suggests to me Snape's inner motives: he was bright and insecure . . . (blah blah blah insert your own psycho-babble conclusion which results in Snape, while doing some bad things due to his insecurities (as most people are prone to do), ultimately be accountable to his better angels.
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Madeleine

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Re: Snape
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2005, 12:11:21 AM »

Maybe the significance of Harry having his mother's eyes is less in the color and shape than in the clarity of emotions expressed in them, and their tendency to make one look deeper into themselves or to encourage one to hope and see the best in others.  Being written from Harry's point of view, the books understandably wouldn't outright say so.  Ya think?

That being the case, and Snape having been in love with Lily, what kind of mixed emotions must he have had looking at Harry, who looks just like his (hated) father, but has his mother's eyes?
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Re: Snape
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2005, 05:09:40 PM »

Quote
That being the case, and Snape having been in love with Lily, what kind of mixed emotions must he have had looking at Harry, who looks just like his (hated) father, but has his mother's eyes?

One would hope that he would have formed his own opinions of Harry by now. I don't know if this has happened, though. I mean, can you imagine if Harry was teaching at Hogwarts and one of Dudley's kids was in one of his classes? How would he react to that?

Honestly, I think we've seen Harry grow enough that he would probably be able to overcome that. We haven't been given enough information on Snape's emotional maturity to know, though. In some ways, he seems less mature than Harry.
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Re: Snape
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2005, 09:19:07 AM »

I don't believe that, given Snape's attitude towards Harry, he has been able to really set Harry apart from his father.  It seems that he hates Harry because he's James' son and isn't even trying to get past that.  Perhaps hating James, and subsequently hating Harry, eases a guilty conscience?  He did alert Voldy of the prophecy, after all.

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