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Author Topic: Snape: a double agent?  (Read 1216 times)

Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2003, 10:03:57 AM »

When LV was talking about his faithful servant at Hogwarts, I'm almost positive he was referring to Moody/Crouch Jr.  Moody/Crouch was the only one who went to look for him as soon as he was able to.  I think the plan had been for him to be Moody at Hogwarts even before the World Cup was underway.  

Besides, Crouch calls himself LV's most faithful servant.  I also think that/wonder if he is the "faithful servant" that Trelawney's prophecy referred to or whether that related to Wormtail, but that's a discussion for a different thread.  

Either way, I don't think he referred to Snape there.  

Yes, Sirius, we do know that Snape's job has been to find out what LV's thinking, but the question is what does this mean?  How does he go about doing that?  Does he actually have to face the Dark Lord personally or does he get his information fed to him by Lucius Malfoy?  What kind of risk is he really in?  

 
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Sirius Black

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2003, 02:36:46 PM »

You know Ping, I wondered the same thing about the faithful servant. But, you're right- that's a different conversation.

Anyway, I always just thought that Snape was seeing Voldemort directly. I don't know what it is exactly, just the way Snape talks about him to Harry. Is there anyway that the Order would trust Malfoy to know ALL of the plans they needed to get from Voldemort? I would think they would go straight to the source, as opposed to asking for second-hand information. Not sure, though.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2003, 04:07:07 PM »

Well, I suppose the same would be asked of Snape, for that matter.  Is there any real reason to believe that LV would trust Snape with the knowledge of absolutely everything he's up to?  If so, wouldn't Snape have had to do a lot to earn that trust since he would probably have been thought to have defected against the dark side before LV disappeared 15 years ago?  Wouldn't earning lots of LV's trust involve something pretty huge like being a double agent and spying on Dumbledore?  I mean, think about it:  Snape comes back to LV saying I know I only looked like I was being faithful to Dumbledore but really I'm on your side.  Even with legilimens, I would think that LV would test Snape by asking him somehow to sabotage Dumbledore somehow, wouldn't you?
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Sirius Black

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2003, 01:28:48 AM »

Yeah, that's exactly my train of thought, Cho. I was thinking I was being a bit too... paranoid or something when I was thinking it, so I decided not to post it. But what if Snape was a.... a what, triple agent?

Pretending to be for Voldemort to Dumbledore, so that he could "spy" on Voldemort for Dumbledore... But really only feeding Dumbledore not so important info. that Voldemort has cleared Snape to tell Dumbledore. Just to keep Dumbledore believing, until Voldemort really wants to trap Dumbledore, and makes sure Dumbledore is at a certain place, where Voldemort ambushes him... So he would be pretending  to be pretending to be loyal to Voldemort.... woah, was that confusing or what?!
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2003, 08:13:44 AM »

*shakes her head trying to read Sirius' post*

Uh...yeah.  It was.  

I guess the only really unlikely thing about it is that he'd have to have some pretty high level lying and spying going on to retain the absolute trust of both parties in order to be a double/triple agent.  He'd have to tell the truth on some fairly important things (but never too damaging) to both LV and Dumbledore so as to appear really faithful.  It's mind-boggling just trying to figure out how that might work.
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Sirius Black

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2003, 11:58:43 AM »

Yeah, that's why my last post was so messed up. I was trying to think it through and explain it at the same time... it uhh... didn't work out too well, did it?

But I think you're right about telling some slightly important stuff to appear loyal. But don't you think Voldemort would be willing to clear info. with Snape to tell, maybe endangering a weaker Death Eater or something? I mean Voldemort obviously isn't too concerned with anyone else's life or death. I can see him sacrificing lives to get Snape as a spy.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2003, 01:02:17 PM »

I dunno.  He'd have to be really convinced that sacrificing actually loyal death eaters was worth getting a questionably loyal one.
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Sirius Black

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2003, 05:07:46 PM »

No... that's what I'm saying. He wouldn't risk a loyal Death Eater. He could use one that was either of no use to him anymore, or just one of them that he knew was planning on leaving or something. He could also use a regular person and put them under the Imperius curse, making them act like one of his Death Eaters to fool Dumbledore.
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juwannajedi

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2003, 09:36:32 PM »

Let me just say that it will break my heart if he turns out to be a bad guy in the end.

//glare at Cho

Why do you have to bring up stuff like this anyways!?!?
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Sirius Black

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2003, 10:50:26 PM »

 :D :D


To tell you the truth Ju... I kind of won't care if Snape's a bad guy in the end! I mean, as far as I'm concerned it will just make me feel better that it was scum of the Earth that didn't like Lily... James... Harry... and Sirius. You know what I mean?
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2003, 09:24:45 AM »

I agree, Ju.  I wouldn't like him to be a double agent, either.  I'm just trying to analyze the evidence and be open to the possibilities.  You can't tell me that it didn't cross your mind.  AND you can't tell me that JKR's not setting us up for that possibility.  I don't think he's a double agent, but I'm not absolutely confident.  That's all.
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Pro. Snape

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2003, 11:27:46 AM »

*glares at everyone, snorts, then leaves*
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2003, 03:26:44 PM »

Okay, time to award some points for this conversation, I think.  If some other prefect/mod type feels like it, they could award me whatever they think is appropriate (since I shouldn't award my own brilliance.  ;D).  As for the rest of you:

Fed - 15
Heather - 10
Mad - 10
Sirius - 10
Shelly - 10
ARR- 5

Did I miss anyone?
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Pro. Snape

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2003, 03:31:54 PM »

*steps back in and sneers* 20 points to Gryffindor for Miss Chung's comments. *leaves again*
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2003, 01:55:16 PM »

//stares at the back of Snape's head as he sweeps out of the room//

Well, Mr. Cheerful, today, aren't we?

Anyway, I wanted to follow up on a question that Heather posted about Snape in the Dumbledore fallible thread.  She was asking why LV would trust Snape after he has to know that Snape turned spy for Dumbledore.

So here's a thought:  assuming that Snape is indeed actually loyal to Dumbledore (there's certainly enough evidence for it), perhaps Snape is able to get info from LV because he's either 1) an animagus and can listen in in Rita-Skeeter-like fashion (i.e. maybe he's a snake or a bat or something.  Ooh!  Bat!!  Sweeping in out and of rooms!  I like it!), or 2) a metamorphmagus.

Whaddaya think?
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Angelina Tonks

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2003, 03:37:38 PM »

Well, I don't think he's a metamorphmagus or an animagus.  My thought is that Snape is actual so good at occlumency that Voldemort can use legilimency on him and not notice that he's spying on him. It also explains why Harry has been taught occlumency by Snape and not any other teacher, and Dumbledore couldn't teach him because of the whole Voldemort-travelling-on-Harry's-mind kind of thing.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2003, 03:43:36 PM »

It does make sense.  It's just that LV would kind of have to be a fool to trust Snape again.  As Heather said, it has to have gotten back to LV that Dumbledore stood up for him at the trials 15 years ago and said that he was, basically, a spy against Voldemort.  Lv refers to him (I think) in book 4 when he says that there is one death eater who has left his ranks forever.

I guess Snape would have to be really really really really really good at occlumency to be able to pull one over on old Voldie.
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Heather

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2003, 04:28:10 PM »

WOW!

Quote
So here's a thought:  assuming that Snape is indeed actually loyal to Dumbledore (there's certainly enough evidence for it), perhaps Snape is able to get info from LV because he's either 1) an animagus and can listen in in Rita-Skeeter-like fashion (i.e. maybe he's a snake or a bat or something.  Ooh!  Bat!!  Sweeping in out and of rooms!  I like it!), or 2) a metamorphmagus.

You are right!  Snape has to have some way to get near Voldemort to gather information.  I keep thinking to the line in GoF where Voldemort says he is going to kill the Death Eater who left their ranks forever.  I assumed it was Snape; yet Snape lives.  

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Angelina Tonks

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2003, 08:04:00 AM »

Maybe he's using Snape as a spy, without Snape knowing it.
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fallendemon

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2003, 11:01:06 PM »

I don't think will become evil in the next two books. I believe JKR put him in the books to show people that not everyone is what they seem, there is no black and white in a world toned in grey.  As much as we hate to see James and Sirus do horrible things, everyone does them at some point in thier lives that they regret or mature out of as we see in thier cases. Lupin regarded what the two did to Snape as wrong as well as Lilly, so Snape couldn't have been that evil. He was not a saint, but he has a sense of what is right, duty and honor, a very different sense but he has it. It seems to me that he learned very early on he had to take care of himself because no one else was there to do it for. He seemed to be kicked aroudn my Malfwoy and James, there was no where to really go. He grew a tough skin and formed habits that were hard to break. He seemed to have interalized his pain and never delt with it, which leaves a festering wound. Why he became a death eater is anyones guess, but he seem sto have long sense repented and is dealing with his mistakes, bad choices, sins, and the pain he though he could just will away. He goes about doing thing in his own way, not letting anyone get close enough to hurt him. He's putting himself out there in the only way he knows how. He hides his shame and pain behind a mask of hatrad and contempt for what he sees as right and noble, he respects it but won't show it unless it is vital.  Snape is not the evil villian that some would like to think he is.

But thats just my musing what do you guys think?  ;)
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2003, 11:07:56 PM »

I think you're psychoanalyzing him a lot.  Some of the things you said are true, of course (the fact that he suffered a lot at the hands of James and Sirius), but don't forget that he was into the dark arts at that time, too.  It didn't appear that he was driven to the dark arts by James and Sirius.  Sirius (or Lupin) said that one of the reasons James didn't like him was because he was always interested in the Dark Arts, remember?
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fallendemon

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2003, 02:01:03 PM »

I do remember him being in to the dark arts at that time and I believe that it was an a major factor in him becoming a Death Eater, but I don't think that it labels him a bad character for the rest of his life. I honestly think that is what JKR is trying to show us with his character that not everyone who was once bad is still bad, not everyone we don't like or don't get along with is as horrible as we try to make them out to be. I think in the end we will see that Snape really wants to do what is right, that he really is part of the "good guys."
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2003, 02:29:56 PM »

So why do you think that he is afraid to say LV's name?  And why does he keep calling him the "Dark Lord"?
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fallendemon

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2003, 03:01:12 PM »

I think he is playing along with what everyone else expects him to be. He's being low key. Why would he go around proclaiming YKW's real name when every else expects him and others not to do it. He doens't want to call attention to himself. Calling him Darklord is probaly habit or a way to feed everyone's supisions about him. He seems to take a great deal of pleasure from the fact that people think him evil. By being lowkey he's probaly saving himself and being able to be the double agent or spy that he is.
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Heather

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2003, 07:22:00 PM »

Quote
So why do you think that he is afraid to say LV's name?  And why does he keep calling him the "Dark Lord"?  


I wonder if Death Eaters, because of the mark on their body, somehow call Voldemort if they mention his name.  I do think it is significant he won't call Voldemort by his name like other members in the Order will.  It suggests to me, at the very least, Snape is fearful (if not reverent) of Voldemort.  

I don't want to be redundant, but I can't fathom Voldemort allowing Snape back into his service for all the reasons I stated in the other thread (unless Voldemort had Snape feed false information to Dumbledore to gain his trust) --- this discussion could easily become infinitely regressive.

The thing of which I am fairly certain is that Snape likely has his own agenda.  What is that agenda?  I am not certain.  What do you guys think?
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2003, 02:23:41 PM »

Well, assuming that he is actually a good guy, I guess I think his "agenda," if you want to call it that, is that he is just simply fiercely loyal to Dumbledore.  That's all.  I think that he will, in the end, do what Dumbledore asks of him.  

I dunno, I suppose we could psychoanalyze him and say that since he was bullied as a child, he wants to get rid of Voldemort because he believes no one should ever bully anyone in all the world--but that wouldn't go with his character.  He's bullied too many people himself....

I think if anything, he saw the worst of the worst when he was a death eater and decided that in the end, he wanted to be a good guy because being that evil is just sick.  

I wonder if we'll find out or if JKR will leave him a mystery...?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2003, 08:12:41 PM by Cho Chung »
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2003, 10:31:25 PM »

Personally, I think I'd buy the triple agent role. I think it's likely that Snape could be spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore while pretending to spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Because he would have to regain LV's trust if he wanted back in without getting his head handed to him, and what better way to do that than to say "I can give you dirt on Dumbledore"? I think he's loyal to the headmaster because he gave Snape a second chance (allowed him to return to the good side), which is what I think Moody was implying in book 4. I don't remember the exact passage.

I think he calls Voldemort the Dark Lord both as a sign of respect ... and for some reason that we haven't been told yet. It's entirely possible to fight someone and do your best to kill him but still respect him because you know he's powerful. People like, say, Dumbledore know that LV wouldn't want to go up against them and so has no trouble saying the name ... and with Lupin, that may just be the Gryffindor courage thing. But I think Snape would respect him as a worthy opponent because not to do so might lead to underestimating him which would mean ... off with the head.
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Heather

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2003, 07:11:02 PM »

I like this quote  
Quote
I think if anything, he saw the worst of the worst when he was a death eater and decided that in the end, he wanted to be a good guy because being that evil is just sick.
 

That goes along with the whole "choices make you who you are" line of thought from the earlier books.  

I do think Snape's relationship with Lucius Malfoy will be significant.  Recently I have been wondering if the way Snape gets information for the Order is through using Legal. (I can't spell it so I won't try) on Malfoy.  Sirius referred to Snape as Malfoy's lap dog which suggested a relationship between the two.  Malfoy, while rich, doesn't strike me as being a bang up wizard being able to resist Snape.  Snape may somehow be getting access to information through Malfoy.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2003, 09:36:12 PM »

Ah!  Very intriguing indeed!  That way, we don't have the "how could LV trust Snape again" quandary.  I like the idea, Heather!  That could explain why Snape hangs out with Malfoy, as we seem to be told that he does.
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Heather

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2003, 10:01:54 AM »

Points for this cup:

Cho - 15
fallendemon - 8
Angelina Tonks - 5
Xan - 5

This was a great discussion
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