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Author Topic: Snape: a double agent?  (Read 1217 times)

Cho Chung

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Snape: a double agent?
« on: August 04, 2003, 11:42:56 AM »

Okay, ARR guessed in the Books 6 and 7 predictions thread that Snape would change sides and go bad again.  This raises some issues in my mind that I raised in another thread but no one commented on.  So here they are (with a few more-formed thoughts than before):

Harry asks Snape why he always calls LV "The Dark Lord," when the only people he's ever heard call him that is Death Eaters.  Do you think this is just an old habit that Snape can't break, or is there more?

Snape's response to Harry saying LV's name is quite visceral and extremely similar -- I might even say identical -- to Bellatrix Lestrange's reaction when Harry says LV's name.  What's going on here?  Same thing:  is it just an old habit or is there some dormant "loyalty" to LV still?

Snape obviously seems to be working for the Order because he told Sirius and Lupin about Harry being tricked to go to the Dept. of Mysteries, but to what degree is he really working for the Order?  Could he have told them about it simply to lure them to the Dept so that they could all be finished off?  

Notice that Snape himself doesn't show up at the Dept. even though O.W.L.S. are done -- why not?  What kept him from coming?  (One thought:  perhaps he figured he'd be the only Order person left at Hogwarts since Hagrid and McGonagall and Dumbledore were all out of the picture? Perhaps he wanted to keep an eye on Umbridge?  But Umbridge was already taken away by the centaurs...)

Snape is very good at occlumency, which means he can lie to both LV and Dumbledore--both accomplished legilimens--without being detected.  

Which one is he lying to, really?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 09:40:18 PM by Ping »
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Fed Barron

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2003, 12:11:53 PM »

I think the reason

that he didn't show up at the dept of mysteries has to do with the fact that he's under cover as a death eater.  Remember the end of GoF.  That may

also explain the reason he reacts to LV's name the way he does.  He knows what goes on and would be reminded about the consequences to him

should he be discovered.

Fed
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2003, 01:06:24 PM »

Cho, all your points are

really, really good. They send a chill down my spine...

Though they are quite convincing, why is it that Dumbledore trusts Snape so much?

His reasons have not once been ill-founded, I don't think... But I do wonder why it is kept so secret to everyone? Why was Snape cleared?
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2003, 01:34:51 PM »

Precisely, Sirius.  We don't

know that Dumbledore's trust is well-founded because we don't really know what it's founded on.  We know that he risked his life to spy on

Voldemort, but we don't know what that means.

Also, even if Snape has been sincere in being on the good side up until now, there's nothing

that says that, since he's been back in the presence of LV (assuming that he has), he hasn't changed his mind and gone back to him.  
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Fed Barron

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2003, 04:18:04 PM »

Good points,

Madeline.

I think the reason we don't know about Snape's turn away from LV is the reason Dumbledore has so much support, even if not

from official sources.  Dumbledore is loyal and keeps confidence's.  Therefore he earns the loyalty of those around him.  This may lend support to your

theory, Madeline.  Snape may have helped James and Lily (and it may have had more to do with saving Lily) even though he had feelings like he did.  

This shows up again when he teaches Harry privately.  The old hatred is there, under the surface, but he does it anyway because he's been asked to.

/>
It's what we do when we don't feel like it that marks CHARACTER.

People with character earn respect and loyalty.  This may gain

Harry some eventual respect in Snape's eyes but I think it's too much to expect them to be friends.  But, then, we don't have to like everybody we work

with, do we?  Snape probably deserves more respect than we give him.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2003, 04:23:22 PM »

Do we know that Dumbledore

had warning that Lily and James were to be blown up by LV?  I don't recall that.  I thought people found out simply because, well, it happened.  If you're

right, Mad, I like the theory.  That would make it completely obvious that Snape is loyal, even against his own will (as Fed points out).  

I still

think Snape is intriguing, and I think JKR is making him even more intriguing on purpose.  I'd still like to know why Snape is so adamant about Harry not

calling LV by his name.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2003, 04:54:55 PM »

I'd still like to know why Snape is so adamant about Harry not calling LV by his name.

Could it have something to do with the way LV calls his followers.  Maybe he can sense them talking about him?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 09:40:54 PM by Ping »
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2003, 06:48:53 PM »

When you say call the Death

Eaters, do you mean with the Dark Mark on the arm? I'm not really following you...


About Snape possibily telling Dumbledore about the

attack on James and Lily... Didn't it have something to do with Sirius finding out that Pettigrew had told LV about the Potter's location? And then Sirius

ran off to tell Dumbledore at once? Or is that wrong?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2003, 10:16:55 PM »

On this line of thinking, what

about the confrontation between Quirrel and Snape in book one where Snape told Q. he needed to decide where his loyalties lie.  Wouldn't Vol. have

realized that Snape was no longer loyal to him and had switched his loyalty to D.?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2003, 10:22:59 PM »

Yes, I think, unless Snape

had told Voldemort that he was being a spy for him, and telling him little bits of Dumbledore's info., that Dumbledore approved for Snape to tell

Voldemort. That way it would appear to LV that Snape really was spying on Dumbledore.   Or else, it could be vise versa...
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2003, 12:50:15 AM »

One thng I never

understood is how does Snape explain away to Voldemort, his never being prosecuted as a Death Eater, when it was known that he was a Death Eater.



We know from the pensive that Dumbeldore spoke on his behalf to the ministry, but shouldn't that have made Voldemort at least a little bit

suspicious of Snape?
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2003, 07:37:47 AM »

Well, first of all, this is all

speculation.  We don't know what Snape has been doing and what contact he's had with LV at all.  So how he has pulled stuff off is speculation

upon speculation.  Just want to point that out so we don't get confused.

Fed, I don't think I understand your comment.  It seems that none of

LV's followers call him by name, so if he is able to sense when they're talking about him, it's not because they say his name.  So Harry saying his

name should not particularly draw his attention.

Is that what you meant by your comment?
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Fed Barron

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2003, 11:29:20 AM »

Yeah, that's what I

meant.  We don't know exactly how the magic LV uses with the dark mark on his follower works.  Could it have some two way communication

properties?  Just a speculation.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2003, 01:19:48 PM »

There's been no indication of such a two-way communication thing so far, but that does not exclude the possibility.  Interesting.  So, if that were the case, then Harry saying LV's name in Snape's presence might alert LV to their conversation, is that it?

It's particularly intriguing in light of the fact that, sometime while they're having occlumency lessons, JKR draws our attention ot the Dark Mark on Snape's arm by saying that he was rubbing it (can't remember the complete context, but I know everything I just said is accurate).  I thought it was after Harry had been able to shake Snape's legilimens off for a bit and Snape commented something about not remembering telling Harry to use a Stunning spell or something.  Anyway (after all my babbling), the point is that JKR wants us to remember that the mark is there.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 01:24:52 PM by Cho Chung »
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Madeleine

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2003, 01:49:23 PM »

I'm still not sure I'm satisfied about why Snape would react that way about Harry saying "Lord Voldemort."  You've all brought up interesting ideas, but I think I'll need to keep pondering that one.

I hadn't been thinking about Snape's talks with Quirrel, either.  If Voldemort were sharing Quirrel's body, wouldn't he have been in on those conversations?  From what I remember, Snape was very clearly trying to get Quirrel to stop being Voldie's toady.  If so, how would he explain that away when he met Voldemort again?

As for the tip off about Lily and James, the first thing we know about that series of events is that one of Dumbledore's spies alerted him to Voldemort having his eye on the Potters.  That's why they did the whole Secret Keeper thing, and went to hide in Godric's Hollow.  Right beforehand, Sirius got James to switch to Peter, but they didn't tell anyone else.  It was AFTER Sirius had heard about the attack that he realized who the spy was (remember, they had been concerned about this for a while, and Sirius must have thought it was Lupin, which is why they didn't tell him about the switch) and went to track Pettigrew down himself - thus leading to the unfortunate demise of a dozen Muggles and Sirius being thrown in Azkaban.

I believe all that was explained in book three.  That's how I remember it, at any rate, which leads me to wonder - Fudge was telling the story, I believe, and commented that Dumbledore had a number of useful spies - which of Dumbledore's spies it was.  Snape seems like a good choice to me.  It proves his character... and there's all that delightful dramatic irony.  ;D  That's part of why I think he works so hard to protect Harry and is so furious when Harry puts himself in danger in the first four books.  He tried to save James and Lily and failed, but somehow he needs to (maybe because James saved him, maybe for more general repentance-for-evil-doing reasons) so Harry is his opportunity to redeem himself.  But he still hates him.

Okay, so did I ramble enough?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2003, 10:45:06 PM »

I

don't think that Snape will end up working for YKW in any way. I think that JKR kind of "put" Snape there as a sort of test for Harry. There is

one quote in OoP that drew my attention, and thats when Sirius is talking about Umbridge. I think it's something like:
Quote
Harry:

"{Umbridge} is foul enough to be {a Death Eater}
Sirius: "Yes, but you must remember, Harry. The world isn't divided into good people

and Death Eaters"
I think that Snape really does hate Harry, but I trust Dumbledore more than I distrust Snape, and something tells

me that Dumbledore is too smart to be tricked by him, even with Occlumency.

I hope that made at least a little bit of sense.  ::)[/font]

/>
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Sirius Black

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2003, 11:30:29 AM »

Yes, it made sense to me

Shelly. That is a good quote too, it makes a great point concerning Snape. I disagree with you, however, about Snape going back to LV. I think Snape

will either go back to LV as a spy- for Dumbledore, working against the Dark Side... Or else that Snape will fully turn and go bad.
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Fed Barron

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2003, 07:33:55 PM »

Yes, it made sense to me Shelly. That is a good quote too, it makes a great point concerning Snape. I disagree with you, however, about Snape going back to LV. I think Snape will either go back to LV as a spy- for Dumbledore, working against the Dark Side... Or else that Snape will fully turn and go bad.

I was under the impression that he had already started to go back as a spy for Dumbledore.  Or at least laid the ground work to do so.  I always thought that was the task Dumbledore was aluding to at the end of GoF when he mobilzed the OoP.  It would also make sense with all of the comments he made to Sirius about staying safe in his house while others risked their lives.
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2003, 09:36:24 AM »

Yes, Fed.  It would.  I think

we've all assumed that that's what Snape has been doing, but no one's really come quite out and said that.  I suspect we'll be finding out particulars of

what he's doing and how he's doing whatever it is.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2003, 10:33:22 PM »

I dont doubt

that Snape will go back to YKW to spy... I suppose he could even pretend to go back... but I do think he's loyal to Dumbledore.

Just thought

I'd clarify that.  ;)

BUT... I don't think Harry is ever going to trust him (not that I blame him) so I predict that if Snape pretends to go back to

YKW, Harry will end up thinking its real, it'll turn out to be a big conflict, etc. etc.  ::)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 11:00:15 PM by SeaShelly3 »
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2003, 10:47:45 PM »

There was an allusion to what

Snape was doing - remember that Sirius asked him if he was still Lucius Malfoy's lapdog.  
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Cho Chung

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2003, 02:53:13 PM »

Yes, but what do you suppose that means?  
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2003, 04:58:12 PM »

I am not sure.  When I first read it, I assumed that Snape had been a toadie for Malfoy at Hogwarts.  However, I wonder if it is a hint at how Snape became a Death Eater.  Basically, my gut tells me this is significant somehow, but I am not sure why.

Thoughts?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2003, 08:54:19 PM »

Ok... Umm.... I think we either all missed a huge point, or else I am just over-interpeting. But look at this direct quote from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (American version, page 591)

Quote

...Snape said coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."
   "No -- that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.
   ...Harry was convinced he had gone too far, but there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
   "Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job..."


So that means it's for sure then, right? Snape is 100% a spy, or at least acting as one, against Voldemort for Dumbledore/The Order?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2003, 08:57:51 PM »

I think you are right - that pretty much states that Snape's job is to be a double agent for Dumbledore.  Good find!
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2003, 09:01:45 PM »

Thanks :)

Yeah, but I mean I think he door is still open for Snape to be an um... triple agent.... or something like that, you get what I'm saying?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2003, 09:06:42 PM »

I see what you are saying.  Snape has his own "issues" which affect his motivation.  I want to believe that ultimately his loyalties lie with Dumbledore.  Based on the actions we can see that he has taken, he appears to be more on Dumbledore's side.  The question remains (which you raised) - what has he done that we have not seen?  If he is a triple agent, I think it could result in Dumbledore's downfall. .  .
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2003, 09:09:42 PM »

I agree, Heather. Snape is OBVIOUSLY a very very accomplished wizard, maybe powerful enough to even conceal things from Dumbledore.


Also, I was thinking... The reason for Snape being denied a job as DaDa Professor... Well, if it really is jinxed, that would mean Dumbledore wouldn't get to have him around after his first year, right? So maybe Dumbledore just won't let him do it, because he knows it IS jinxed and wants Snape around!
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2003, 09:13:52 PM »

I agree - I had the same thought.  The other thought that I had was maybe Snape was being denied the DaDA job because it might bring out too much of the dark side (sorry for the Star Wars reference) in him.

I think you may be on to something.  Lupin kept said Snape was an accomplished at concealing his thoughts.  Also, remember in Goblet of Fire - BEFORE Moody got the DaDA job (in chapter 1), Voldemort kept talking about his person at Hogwarts (could this be Snape?).  I always thought it was a reference to Moody - but Moody did not get the job until after the World Cup (maybe I am over analyzing).
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2003, 09:41:29 PM »

Heather, I think it's almost impossible to over-analyze anything with JKR and such. Keep going with your thoughts, I like them. Anything else you think of, post it up for discussion.


I like the point that Voldemort was talking about it BEFORE "Moody" was at Hogwarts.. I mean, he could just have been talking knowing that "Moody" had already been hired and would be working at Hogwarts, or he COULD have been referring to Snape...
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2003, 10:03:57 AM »

When LV was talking about his faithful servant at Hogwarts, I'm almost positive he was referring to Moody/Crouch Jr.  Moody/Crouch was the only one who went to look for him as soon as he was able to.  I think the plan had been for him to be Moody at Hogwarts even before the World Cup was underway.  

Besides, Crouch calls himself LV's most faithful servant.  I also think that/wonder if he is the "faithful servant" that Trelawney's prophecy referred to or whether that related to Wormtail, but that's a discussion for a different thread.  

Either way, I don't think he referred to Snape there.  

Yes, Sirius, we do know that Snape's job has been to find out what LV's thinking, but the question is what does this mean?  How does he go about doing that?  Does he actually have to face the Dark Lord personally or does he get his information fed to him by Lucius Malfoy?  What kind of risk is he really in?  

 
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2003, 02:36:46 PM »

You know Ping, I wondered the same thing about the faithful servant. But, you're right- that's a different conversation.

Anyway, I always just thought that Snape was seeing Voldemort directly. I don't know what it is exactly, just the way Snape talks about him to Harry. Is there anyway that the Order would trust Malfoy to know ALL of the plans they needed to get from Voldemort? I would think they would go straight to the source, as opposed to asking for second-hand information. Not sure, though.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2003, 04:07:07 PM »

Well, I suppose the same would be asked of Snape, for that matter.  Is there any real reason to believe that LV would trust Snape with the knowledge of absolutely everything he's up to?  If so, wouldn't Snape have had to do a lot to earn that trust since he would probably have been thought to have defected against the dark side before LV disappeared 15 years ago?  Wouldn't earning lots of LV's trust involve something pretty huge like being a double agent and spying on Dumbledore?  I mean, think about it:  Snape comes back to LV saying I know I only looked like I was being faithful to Dumbledore but really I'm on your side.  Even with legilimens, I would think that LV would test Snape by asking him somehow to sabotage Dumbledore somehow, wouldn't you?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2003, 01:28:48 AM »

Yeah, that's exactly my train of thought, Cho. I was thinking I was being a bit too... paranoid or something when I was thinking it, so I decided not to post it. But what if Snape was a.... a what, triple agent?

Pretending to be for Voldemort to Dumbledore, so that he could "spy" on Voldemort for Dumbledore... But really only feeding Dumbledore not so important info. that Voldemort has cleared Snape to tell Dumbledore. Just to keep Dumbledore believing, until Voldemort really wants to trap Dumbledore, and makes sure Dumbledore is at a certain place, where Voldemort ambushes him... So he would be pretending  to be pretending to be loyal to Voldemort.... woah, was that confusing or what?!
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2003, 08:13:44 AM »

*shakes her head trying to read Sirius' post*

Uh...yeah.  It was.  

I guess the only really unlikely thing about it is that he'd have to have some pretty high level lying and spying going on to retain the absolute trust of both parties in order to be a double/triple agent.  He'd have to tell the truth on some fairly important things (but never too damaging) to both LV and Dumbledore so as to appear really faithful.  It's mind-boggling just trying to figure out how that might work.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2003, 11:58:43 AM »

Yeah, that's why my last post was so messed up. I was trying to think it through and explain it at the same time... it uhh... didn't work out too well, did it?

But I think you're right about telling some slightly important stuff to appear loyal. But don't you think Voldemort would be willing to clear info. with Snape to tell, maybe endangering a weaker Death Eater or something? I mean Voldemort obviously isn't too concerned with anyone else's life or death. I can see him sacrificing lives to get Snape as a spy.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2003, 01:02:17 PM »

I dunno.  He'd have to be really convinced that sacrificing actually loyal death eaters was worth getting a questionably loyal one.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2003, 05:07:46 PM »

No... that's what I'm saying. He wouldn't risk a loyal Death Eater. He could use one that was either of no use to him anymore, or just one of them that he knew was planning on leaving or something. He could also use a regular person and put them under the Imperius curse, making them act like one of his Death Eaters to fool Dumbledore.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2003, 09:36:32 PM »

Let me just say that it will break my heart if he turns out to be a bad guy in the end.

//glare at Cho

Why do you have to bring up stuff like this anyways!?!?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2003, 10:50:26 PM »

 :D :D


To tell you the truth Ju... I kind of won't care if Snape's a bad guy in the end! I mean, as far as I'm concerned it will just make me feel better that it was scum of the Earth that didn't like Lily... James... Harry... and Sirius. You know what I mean?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2003, 09:24:45 AM »

I agree, Ju.  I wouldn't like him to be a double agent, either.  I'm just trying to analyze the evidence and be open to the possibilities.  You can't tell me that it didn't cross your mind.  AND you can't tell me that JKR's not setting us up for that possibility.  I don't think he's a double agent, but I'm not absolutely confident.  That's all.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2003, 11:27:46 AM »

*glares at everyone, snorts, then leaves*
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2003, 03:26:44 PM »

Okay, time to award some points for this conversation, I think.  If some other prefect/mod type feels like it, they could award me whatever they think is appropriate (since I shouldn't award my own brilliance.  ;D).  As for the rest of you:

Fed - 15
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Mad - 10
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Shelly - 10
ARR- 5

Did I miss anyone?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2003, 03:31:54 PM »

*steps back in and sneers* 20 points to Gryffindor for Miss Chung's comments. *leaves again*
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2003, 01:55:16 PM »

//stares at the back of Snape's head as he sweeps out of the room//

Well, Mr. Cheerful, today, aren't we?

Anyway, I wanted to follow up on a question that Heather posted about Snape in the Dumbledore fallible thread.  She was asking why LV would trust Snape after he has to know that Snape turned spy for Dumbledore.

So here's a thought:  assuming that Snape is indeed actually loyal to Dumbledore (there's certainly enough evidence for it), perhaps Snape is able to get info from LV because he's either 1) an animagus and can listen in in Rita-Skeeter-like fashion (i.e. maybe he's a snake or a bat or something.  Ooh!  Bat!!  Sweeping in out and of rooms!  I like it!), or 2) a metamorphmagus.

Whaddaya think?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2003, 03:37:38 PM »

Well, I don't think he's a metamorphmagus or an animagus.  My thought is that Snape is actual so good at occlumency that Voldemort can use legilimency on him and not notice that he's spying on him. It also explains why Harry has been taught occlumency by Snape and not any other teacher, and Dumbledore couldn't teach him because of the whole Voldemort-travelling-on-Harry's-mind kind of thing.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2003, 03:43:36 PM »

It does make sense.  It's just that LV would kind of have to be a fool to trust Snape again.  As Heather said, it has to have gotten back to LV that Dumbledore stood up for him at the trials 15 years ago and said that he was, basically, a spy against Voldemort.  Lv refers to him (I think) in book 4 when he says that there is one death eater who has left his ranks forever.

I guess Snape would have to be really really really really really good at occlumency to be able to pull one over on old Voldie.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2003, 04:28:10 PM »

WOW!

Quote
So here's a thought:  assuming that Snape is indeed actually loyal to Dumbledore (there's certainly enough evidence for it), perhaps Snape is able to get info from LV because he's either 1) an animagus and can listen in in Rita-Skeeter-like fashion (i.e. maybe he's a snake or a bat or something.  Ooh!  Bat!!  Sweeping in out and of rooms!  I like it!), or 2) a metamorphmagus.

You are right!  Snape has to have some way to get near Voldemort to gather information.  I keep thinking to the line in GoF where Voldemort says he is going to kill the Death Eater who left their ranks forever.  I assumed it was Snape; yet Snape lives.  

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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2003, 08:04:00 AM »

Maybe he's using Snape as a spy, without Snape knowing it.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2003, 11:01:06 PM »

I don't think will become evil in the next two books. I believe JKR put him in the books to show people that not everyone is what they seem, there is no black and white in a world toned in grey.  As much as we hate to see James and Sirus do horrible things, everyone does them at some point in thier lives that they regret or mature out of as we see in thier cases. Lupin regarded what the two did to Snape as wrong as well as Lilly, so Snape couldn't have been that evil. He was not a saint, but he has a sense of what is right, duty and honor, a very different sense but he has it. It seems to me that he learned very early on he had to take care of himself because no one else was there to do it for. He seemed to be kicked aroudn my Malfwoy and James, there was no where to really go. He grew a tough skin and formed habits that were hard to break. He seemed to have interalized his pain and never delt with it, which leaves a festering wound. Why he became a death eater is anyones guess, but he seem sto have long sense repented and is dealing with his mistakes, bad choices, sins, and the pain he though he could just will away. He goes about doing thing in his own way, not letting anyone get close enough to hurt him. He's putting himself out there in the only way he knows how. He hides his shame and pain behind a mask of hatrad and contempt for what he sees as right and noble, he respects it but won't show it unless it is vital.  Snape is not the evil villian that some would like to think he is.

But thats just my musing what do you guys think?  ;)
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2003, 11:07:56 PM »

I think you're psychoanalyzing him a lot.  Some of the things you said are true, of course (the fact that he suffered a lot at the hands of James and Sirius), but don't forget that he was into the dark arts at that time, too.  It didn't appear that he was driven to the dark arts by James and Sirius.  Sirius (or Lupin) said that one of the reasons James didn't like him was because he was always interested in the Dark Arts, remember?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2003, 02:01:03 PM »

I do remember him being in to the dark arts at that time and I believe that it was an a major factor in him becoming a Death Eater, but I don't think that it labels him a bad character for the rest of his life. I honestly think that is what JKR is trying to show us with his character that not everyone who was once bad is still bad, not everyone we don't like or don't get along with is as horrible as we try to make them out to be. I think in the end we will see that Snape really wants to do what is right, that he really is part of the "good guys."
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2003, 02:29:56 PM »

So why do you think that he is afraid to say LV's name?  And why does he keep calling him the "Dark Lord"?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2003, 03:01:12 PM »

I think he is playing along with what everyone else expects him to be. He's being low key. Why would he go around proclaiming YKW's real name when every else expects him and others not to do it. He doens't want to call attention to himself. Calling him Darklord is probaly habit or a way to feed everyone's supisions about him. He seems to take a great deal of pleasure from the fact that people think him evil. By being lowkey he's probaly saving himself and being able to be the double agent or spy that he is.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2003, 07:22:00 PM »

Quote
So why do you think that he is afraid to say LV's name?  And why does he keep calling him the "Dark Lord"?  


I wonder if Death Eaters, because of the mark on their body, somehow call Voldemort if they mention his name.  I do think it is significant he won't call Voldemort by his name like other members in the Order will.  It suggests to me, at the very least, Snape is fearful (if not reverent) of Voldemort.  

I don't want to be redundant, but I can't fathom Voldemort allowing Snape back into his service for all the reasons I stated in the other thread (unless Voldemort had Snape feed false information to Dumbledore to gain his trust) --- this discussion could easily become infinitely regressive.

The thing of which I am fairly certain is that Snape likely has his own agenda.  What is that agenda?  I am not certain.  What do you guys think?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2003, 02:23:41 PM »

Well, assuming that he is actually a good guy, I guess I think his "agenda," if you want to call it that, is that he is just simply fiercely loyal to Dumbledore.  That's all.  I think that he will, in the end, do what Dumbledore asks of him.  

I dunno, I suppose we could psychoanalyze him and say that since he was bullied as a child, he wants to get rid of Voldemort because he believes no one should ever bully anyone in all the world--but that wouldn't go with his character.  He's bullied too many people himself....

I think if anything, he saw the worst of the worst when he was a death eater and decided that in the end, he wanted to be a good guy because being that evil is just sick.  

I wonder if we'll find out or if JKR will leave him a mystery...?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2003, 08:12:41 PM by Cho Chung »
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2003, 10:31:25 PM »

Personally, I think I'd buy the triple agent role. I think it's likely that Snape could be spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore while pretending to spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Because he would have to regain LV's trust if he wanted back in without getting his head handed to him, and what better way to do that than to say "I can give you dirt on Dumbledore"? I think he's loyal to the headmaster because he gave Snape a second chance (allowed him to return to the good side), which is what I think Moody was implying in book 4. I don't remember the exact passage.

I think he calls Voldemort the Dark Lord both as a sign of respect ... and for some reason that we haven't been told yet. It's entirely possible to fight someone and do your best to kill him but still respect him because you know he's powerful. People like, say, Dumbledore know that LV wouldn't want to go up against them and so has no trouble saying the name ... and with Lupin, that may just be the Gryffindor courage thing. But I think Snape would respect him as a worthy opponent because not to do so might lead to underestimating him which would mean ... off with the head.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2003, 07:11:02 PM »

I like this quote  
Quote
I think if anything, he saw the worst of the worst when he was a death eater and decided that in the end, he wanted to be a good guy because being that evil is just sick.
 

That goes along with the whole "choices make you who you are" line of thought from the earlier books.  

I do think Snape's relationship with Lucius Malfoy will be significant.  Recently I have been wondering if the way Snape gets information for the Order is through using Legal. (I can't spell it so I won't try) on Malfoy.  Sirius referred to Snape as Malfoy's lap dog which suggested a relationship between the two.  Malfoy, while rich, doesn't strike me as being a bang up wizard being able to resist Snape.  Snape may somehow be getting access to information through Malfoy.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2003, 09:36:12 PM »

Ah!  Very intriguing indeed!  That way, we don't have the "how could LV trust Snape again" quandary.  I like the idea, Heather!  That could explain why Snape hangs out with Malfoy, as we seem to be told that he does.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2003, 10:01:54 AM »

Points for this cup:

Cho - 15
fallendemon - 8
Angelina Tonks - 5
Xan - 5

This was a great discussion
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2004, 09:09:13 PM »

I agree with Heather (not just because she is my wife) - in the Order of the Phoenix, Umbridge mentions to Snape when she is berating him for not having Veritaserum available for her to use on Harry that Lucius Malfoy always spoke highly of him.  
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2004, 02:31:01 PM »

A friend of mine mentioned an interesting idea.  I am not sure how I feel about it, but I wanted to throw it out there for discussion.

She suggested that perhaps the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so much is that Dumbledore asked Snape to become a Death Eater to spy for him.  Snape accepted the charge to prove himself worthy.  

What do you think?
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2004, 09:47:35 AM »

*shakes head* I don't think so. I mean, Snape came to Hogwarts full of black magic and anger, judging by the descriptions of him we get. It would cheapen the theme of redemption and trust, somehow. *struggles to find words* Uh, just, well, no. :)
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2004, 02:32:44 PM »

I agree.  Unless Snape changed before joining the Death Eaters and then was asked by Dumbledore to spy for him (which certainly is a possibility, though remote), it isn't likely.
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Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2004, 10:00:33 PM »

Yep, y'all are right.  Snape's character has to have a pivotal, self defining moment.  
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2004, 07:12:12 PM »

Quote
Lucius Malfoy always spoke highly of him.

But why is that, I wonder?  After all, Dumbledore has vouched for Snape and told everyone that he was a double agent (that was in D's Pensieve in GoF). 

If Snape is telling Malfoy that he (Snape) was really just pretending to be a double agent for Dumbledore.....aw, crap, now I'm more confused.



On a side note, I wonder how Malfoy weasled (ferreted? ;)) out of getting arrested and serving time in Azkaban?  I suspect it had something to do with the exchange of Knuts and Galleons.....
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2004, 10:48:24 AM »

Quote
I suspect it had something to do with the exchange of Knuts and Galleons.....

I'm quite sure that it had everything to do with that!
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2004, 06:54:25 PM »

Good question about Lucius, Susan (take 5 points)!  The impression that I have of Lucky Lucius Malfoy is that he only befriends those people whose friendship could benefit him somehow (powerful or wealthy people).  Snape does not appear to be wealthy, so power has to be what Lucius sees in him.  The question becomes - what type of power/what does Snape possess/know/have the ability to do that makes him attractive to Malfoy. 

Also, Malfoy would know that Dumbledore stood up for Snape during the Death Eater trials.  Malfoy abhors and loathes Dumbledore.  Dumbledore's support of Snape would tend, in my mind, to weigh against Snape in Malofy's eyes.  But yet, Malfoy speaks highly of Snape . . .

I am convinced that the Malfoy-Snape connection in critical to the double agent question.  I still stand by my earlier post that I think Snape uses his Legil. (can't spell it - won't even try) while interacting with Malfoy to get information for the Order.
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2004, 01:59:03 PM »

Oooooh!  Good thoughts, everyone.  It hadn't really occurred to me to ponder it.  Is there any chance Snape could be... I don't know, *charming* Malfoy to get him to like him so much?  I guess that's a long shot... but I do, I really do wonder how he's gotten so much on Malfoy's good side.  Maybe he brews potions for him?  Hard ones that maybe he shouldn't?  Maybe Snape keeps Malfoy (somewhat) up to date on what's happening at Hogwarts that he can interfere with?
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2004, 08:17:24 AM »

Wasn't it Sirius, who'd been in Azkaban for 12 years and so out of touch, that said that Snape was Malfoy's lapdog?

Also, Malfoy might admire Snape for having "tricked" Dumbledore into believing him and standing up for him. After Voldemort was "defeated," everyone was rushing to defend his/her actions. He might have thought Snape was just being all clever in wiggling out of trouble.
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2004, 03:43:15 PM »

Yes, it was Sirius who said it, but I assumed it was based on information that he had about Snape and Snape's activities for the Order that prompted the comment.
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2004, 06:20:00 PM »

I always assumed that he was referring to 'Moody' in that part, and I also always thought that when LV says that one of the death eaters won't be coming back to them, he was referring to Snape, because he's now helping Dumbldore, and that he might have realized that when he was in Quirrel's body.
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2004, 01:14:10 PM »

Quote
I always assumed that he was referring to 'Moody' in that part

What part are you referring to, here, Ro?
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2004, 01:29:49 PM »

when LV commented about having a faithful servant at Hogwarts
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2004, 03:20:09 PM »

Oh, right.  That's what I assumed he meant too.  Sorry.  Just got confused there for a moment.
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2004, 06:53:50 PM »

Nice insight into Professor Snape's loyalties.

10 points to Susan and Cho, Mad, Ping and Ro
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2004, 12:14:25 AM »

... and to Heather, too!
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2004, 10:07:19 AM »

I am rereading POA at the moment and noticed something that I'm sure everyone already knew, but in case you didn't ...

In the scene in the Three Broomsticks where Harry first hears that Sirius Black murdered his parents, McGonagall says something like "Not very many people know that the Potters knew YKW was after them.  But Dumbledore had some useful spies who told him and he warned the Potters."  It would make good sense to me that Snape was one of those spies (if not the spy) who told Dumbledore that LV was after the Potters.  If so, wouldn't that make Snape and James Potter even (as far as attempts to save each other's lives)?  If this is true, too, that would give reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape so much:  he gave information that would save the life and family of the man whom he hated like nothing else.

Any thoughts?  Did I just state the totally obvious??
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2004, 01:20:26 PM »

Oooh, I love that idea, and it makes a lot of sense. However, Snape still isn't at peace with himself because he saves Harry in the first book.
However, I definetly think that would gain Dumbledore's trust.
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2004, 11:42:58 PM »

I don't think it would make them even because as useful as the information was, James still bit the dust in the end. If anything, it might just make Snape more determined to repay the debt, because James saved his life and he couldn't repay the favor.

Oh, and about Lucius: I think he claimed to have been put under the Imperius Curse. I vaguely remember reading that in the books - I'll see if I can find that passage ...
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2008, 03:12:01 PM »

Well, had to bring this back up - rather interesting to re-read this topic after finishing the whole thing... we were mighty close at times, well done!
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2008, 03:59:14 PM »

Wow - that was a great discussion.  Thanks for bringing that up again!
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Re: Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2008, 08:32:03 AM »

Yeah.  I just reread the entire series from beginning to end a couple of months ago, and then came back here to read all of our speculation threads.  Have to say I found some of our theories downright amusing and, at times, scarily on target. 
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