Hogsmeade

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Closed.

Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Snape: a double agent?  (Read 1214 times)

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Snape: a double agent?
« on: August 04, 2003, 11:42:56 AM »

Okay, ARR guessed in the Books 6 and 7 predictions thread that Snape would change sides and go bad again.  This raises some issues in my mind that I raised in another thread but no one commented on.  So here they are (with a few more-formed thoughts than before):

Harry asks Snape why he always calls LV "The Dark Lord," when the only people he's ever heard call him that is Death Eaters.  Do you think this is just an old habit that Snape can't break, or is there more?

Snape's response to Harry saying LV's name is quite visceral and extremely similar -- I might even say identical -- to Bellatrix Lestrange's reaction when Harry says LV's name.  What's going on here?  Same thing:  is it just an old habit or is there some dormant "loyalty" to LV still?

Snape obviously seems to be working for the Order because he told Sirius and Lupin about Harry being tricked to go to the Dept. of Mysteries, but to what degree is he really working for the Order?  Could he have told them about it simply to lure them to the Dept so that they could all be finished off?  

Notice that Snape himself doesn't show up at the Dept. even though O.W.L.S. are done -- why not?  What kept him from coming?  (One thought:  perhaps he figured he'd be the only Order person left at Hogwarts since Hagrid and McGonagall and Dumbledore were all out of the picture? Perhaps he wanted to keep an eye on Umbridge?  But Umbridge was already taken away by the centaurs...)

Snape is very good at occlumency, which means he can lie to both LV and Dumbledore--both accomplished legilimens--without being detected.  

Which one is he lying to, really?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 09:40:18 PM by Ping »
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

Fed Barron

  • Hufflepuff
  • First-year Student
  • *
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • Legolas would straighten old Voldie out!
    • View Profile
    • fedbarron page
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2003, 12:11:53 PM »

I think the reason

that he didn't show up at the dept of mysteries has to do with the fact that he's under cover as a death eater.  Remember the end of GoF.  That may

also explain the reason he reacts to LV's name the way he does.  He knows what goes on and would be reminded about the consequences to him

should he be discovered.

Fed
Logged

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2003, 01:06:24 PM »

Cho, all your points are

really, really good. They send a chill down my spine...

Though they are quite convincing, why is it that Dumbledore trusts Snape so much?

His reasons have not once been ill-founded, I don't think... But I do wonder why it is kept so secret to everyone? Why was Snape cleared?
Logged

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2003, 01:34:51 PM »

Precisely, Sirius.  We don't

know that Dumbledore's trust is well-founded because we don't really know what it's founded on.  We know that he risked his life to spy on

Voldemort, but we don't know what that means.

Also, even if Snape has been sincere in being on the good side up until now, there's nothing

that says that, since he's been back in the presence of LV (assuming that he has), he hasn't changed his mind and gone back to him.  
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

Fed Barron

  • Hufflepuff
  • First-year Student
  • *
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • Legolas would straighten old Voldie out!
    • View Profile
    • fedbarron page
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2003, 04:18:04 PM »

Good points,

Madeline.

I think the reason we don't know about Snape's turn away from LV is the reason Dumbledore has so much support, even if not

from official sources.  Dumbledore is loyal and keeps confidence's.  Therefore he earns the loyalty of those around him.  This may lend support to your

theory, Madeline.  Snape may have helped James and Lily (and it may have had more to do with saving Lily) even though he had feelings like he did.  

This shows up again when he teaches Harry privately.  The old hatred is there, under the surface, but he does it anyway because he's been asked to.

/>
It's what we do when we don't feel like it that marks CHARACTER.

People with character earn respect and loyalty.  This may gain

Harry some eventual respect in Snape's eyes but I think it's too much to expect them to be friends.  But, then, we don't have to like everybody we work

with, do we?  Snape probably deserves more respect than we give him.
Logged

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2003, 04:23:22 PM »

Do we know that Dumbledore

had warning that Lily and James were to be blown up by LV?  I don't recall that.  I thought people found out simply because, well, it happened.  If you're

right, Mad, I like the theory.  That would make it completely obvious that Snape is loyal, even against his own will (as Fed points out).  

I still

think Snape is intriguing, and I think JKR is making him even more intriguing on purpose.  I'd still like to know why Snape is so adamant about Harry not

calling LV by his name.
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

Fed Barron

  • Hufflepuff
  • First-year Student
  • *
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • Legolas would straighten old Voldie out!
    • View Profile
    • fedbarron page
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2003, 04:54:55 PM »

I'd still like to know why Snape is so adamant about Harry not calling LV by his name.

Could it have something to do with the way LV calls his followers.  Maybe he can sense them talking about him?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 09:40:54 PM by Ping »
Logged

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2003, 06:48:53 PM »

When you say call the Death

Eaters, do you mean with the Dark Mark on the arm? I'm not really following you...


About Snape possibily telling Dumbledore about the

attack on James and Lily... Didn't it have something to do with Sirius finding out that Pettigrew had told LV about the Potter's location? And then Sirius

ran off to tell Dumbledore at once? Or is that wrong?
Logged

Heather

  • Prefect
  • Hufflepuff
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2138
  • Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2003, 10:16:55 PM »

On this line of thinking, what

about the confrontation between Quirrel and Snape in book one where Snape told Q. he needed to decide where his loyalties lie.  Wouldn't Vol. have

realized that Snape was no longer loyal to him and had switched his loyalty to D.?
Logged
Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2003, 10:22:59 PM »

Yes, I think, unless Snape

had told Voldemort that he was being a spy for him, and telling him little bits of Dumbledore's info., that Dumbledore approved for Snape to tell

Voldemort. That way it would appear to LV that Snape really was spying on Dumbledore.   Or else, it could be vise versa...
Logged

All Rights Reserved

  • Third year
  • Gryffindor
  • Third-year Student
  • ***
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 147
  • Lord - Thingy
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2003, 12:50:15 AM »

One thng I never

understood is how does Snape explain away to Voldemort, his never being prosecuted as a Death Eater, when it was known that he was a Death Eater.



We know from the pensive that Dumbeldore spoke on his behalf to the ministry, but shouldn't that have made Voldemort at least a little bit

suspicious of Snape?
Logged
Give her heck from us, Peeves.

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2003, 07:37:47 AM »

Well, first of all, this is all

speculation.  We don't know what Snape has been doing and what contact he's had with LV at all.  So how he has pulled stuff off is speculation

upon speculation.  Just want to point that out so we don't get confused.

Fed, I don't think I understand your comment.  It seems that none of

LV's followers call him by name, so if he is able to sense when they're talking about him, it's not because they say his name.  So Harry saying his

name should not particularly draw his attention.

Is that what you meant by your comment?
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

Fed Barron

  • Hufflepuff
  • First-year Student
  • *
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • Legolas would straighten old Voldie out!
    • View Profile
    • fedbarron page
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2003, 11:29:20 AM »

Yeah, that's what I

meant.  We don't know exactly how the magic LV uses with the dark mark on his follower works.  Could it have some two way communication

properties?  Just a speculation.
Logged

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2003, 01:19:48 PM »

There's been no indication of such a two-way communication thing so far, but that does not exclude the possibility.  Interesting.  So, if that were the case, then Harry saying LV's name in Snape's presence might alert LV to their conversation, is that it?

It's particularly intriguing in light of the fact that, sometime while they're having occlumency lessons, JKR draws our attention ot the Dark Mark on Snape's arm by saying that he was rubbing it (can't remember the complete context, but I know everything I just said is accurate).  I thought it was after Harry had been able to shake Snape's legilimens off for a bit and Snape commented something about not remembering telling Harry to use a Stunning spell or something.  Anyway (after all my babbling), the point is that JKR wants us to remember that the mark is there.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 01:24:52 PM by Cho Chung »
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

Madeleine

  • Resident Mum
  • Prefect
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2406
  • Flavor of the week: Chili Pepper
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2003, 01:49:23 PM »

I'm still not sure I'm satisfied about why Snape would react that way about Harry saying "Lord Voldemort."  You've all brought up interesting ideas, but I think I'll need to keep pondering that one.

I hadn't been thinking about Snape's talks with Quirrel, either.  If Voldemort were sharing Quirrel's body, wouldn't he have been in on those conversations?  From what I remember, Snape was very clearly trying to get Quirrel to stop being Voldie's toady.  If so, how would he explain that away when he met Voldemort again?

As for the tip off about Lily and James, the first thing we know about that series of events is that one of Dumbledore's spies alerted him to Voldemort having his eye on the Potters.  That's why they did the whole Secret Keeper thing, and went to hide in Godric's Hollow.  Right beforehand, Sirius got James to switch to Peter, but they didn't tell anyone else.  It was AFTER Sirius had heard about the attack that he realized who the spy was (remember, they had been concerned about this for a while, and Sirius must have thought it was Lupin, which is why they didn't tell him about the switch) and went to track Pettigrew down himself - thus leading to the unfortunate demise of a dozen Muggles and Sirius being thrown in Azkaban.

I believe all that was explained in book three.  That's how I remember it, at any rate, which leads me to wonder - Fudge was telling the story, I believe, and commented that Dumbledore had a number of useful spies - which of Dumbledore's spies it was.  Snape seems like a good choice to me.  It proves his character... and there's all that delightful dramatic irony.  ;D  That's part of why I think he works so hard to protect Harry and is so furious when Harry puts himself in danger in the first four books.  He tried to save James and Lily and failed, but somehow he needs to (maybe because James saved him, maybe for more general repentance-for-evil-doing reasons) so Harry is his opportunity to redeem himself.  But he still hates him.

Okay, so did I ramble enough?
Logged
Don't get stuck on stupid.

SeaShelly3

  • Keeper of the Keys and Grounds and Rogue Wizard
  • Prefect
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
    • View Profile
    • Just a LiveJournal...
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2003, 10:45:06 PM »

I

don't think that Snape will end up working for YKW in any way. I think that JKR kind of "put" Snape there as a sort of test for Harry. There is

one quote in OoP that drew my attention, and thats when Sirius is talking about Umbridge. I think it's something like:
Quote
Harry:

"{Umbridge} is foul enough to be {a Death Eater}
Sirius: "Yes, but you must remember, Harry. The world isn't divided into good people

and Death Eaters"
I think that Snape really does hate Harry, but I trust Dumbledore more than I distrust Snape, and something tells

me that Dumbledore is too smart to be tricked by him, even with Occlumency.

I hope that made at least a little bit of sense.  ::)[/font]

/>
Logged
The quantity of consonants in the English language is constant. If omitted in one place, they turn up in another. When a Bostonian "pahks" his "cah," the lost r's migrate southwest, causing a Texan to "warsh" his car and invest in "erl wells."

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2003, 11:30:29 AM »

Yes, it made sense to me

Shelly. That is a good quote too, it makes a great point concerning Snape. I disagree with you, however, about Snape going back to LV. I think Snape

will either go back to LV as a spy- for Dumbledore, working against the Dark Side... Or else that Snape will fully turn and go bad.
Logged

Fed Barron

  • Hufflepuff
  • First-year Student
  • *
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • Legolas would straighten old Voldie out!
    • View Profile
    • fedbarron page
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2003, 07:33:55 PM »

Yes, it made sense to me Shelly. That is a good quote too, it makes a great point concerning Snape. I disagree with you, however, about Snape going back to LV. I think Snape will either go back to LV as a spy- for Dumbledore, working against the Dark Side... Or else that Snape will fully turn and go bad.

I was under the impression that he had already started to go back as a spy for Dumbledore.  Or at least laid the ground work to do so.  I always thought that was the task Dumbledore was aluding to at the end of GoF when he mobilzed the OoP.  It would also make sense with all of the comments he made to Sirius about staying safe in his house while others risked their lives.
Logged

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2003, 09:36:24 AM »

Yes, Fed.  It would.  I think

we've all assumed that that's what Snape has been doing, but no one's really come quite out and said that.  I suspect we'll be finding out particulars of

what he's doing and how he's doing whatever it is.
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

SeaShelly3

  • Keeper of the Keys and Grounds and Rogue Wizard
  • Prefect
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
    • View Profile
    • Just a LiveJournal...
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2003, 10:33:22 PM »

I dont doubt

that Snape will go back to YKW to spy... I suppose he could even pretend to go back... but I do think he's loyal to Dumbledore.

Just thought

I'd clarify that.  ;)

BUT... I don't think Harry is ever going to trust him (not that I blame him) so I predict that if Snape pretends to go back to

YKW, Harry will end up thinking its real, it'll turn out to be a big conflict, etc. etc.  ::)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 11:00:15 PM by SeaShelly3 »
Logged
The quantity of consonants in the English language is constant. If omitted in one place, they turn up in another. When a Bostonian "pahks" his "cah," the lost r's migrate southwest, causing a Texan to "warsh" his car and invest in "erl wells."

Heather

  • Prefect
  • Hufflepuff
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2138
  • Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2003, 10:47:45 PM »

There was an allusion to what

Snape was doing - remember that Sirius asked him if he was still Lucius Malfoy's lapdog.  
Logged
Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Cho Chung

  • Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor and Gryffindor Prefect
  • Administrator
  • Seventh-year
  • *****
  • Karma: +10/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3011
  • Have you charmed your prefect today? :D
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2003, 02:53:13 PM »

Yes, but what do you suppose that means?  
Logged
Birthdays are great.  Everyone should have them.

Heather

  • Prefect
  • Hufflepuff
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2138
  • Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2003, 04:58:12 PM »

I am not sure.  When I first read it, I assumed that Snape had been a toadie for Malfoy at Hogwarts.  However, I wonder if it is a hint at how Snape became a Death Eater.  Basically, my gut tells me this is significant somehow, but I am not sure why.

Thoughts?
Logged
Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2003, 08:54:19 PM »

Ok... Umm.... I think we either all missed a huge point, or else I am just over-interpeting. But look at this direct quote from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (American version, page 591)

Quote

...Snape said coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."
   "No -- that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.
   ...Harry was convinced he had gone too far, but there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
   "Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job..."


So that means it's for sure then, right? Snape is 100% a spy, or at least acting as one, against Voldemort for Dumbledore/The Order?
Logged

Heather

  • Prefect
  • Hufflepuff
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2138
  • Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2003, 08:57:51 PM »

I think you are right - that pretty much states that Snape's job is to be a double agent for Dumbledore.  Good find!
Logged
Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2003, 09:01:45 PM »

Thanks :)

Yeah, but I mean I think he door is still open for Snape to be an um... triple agent.... or something like that, you get what I'm saying?
Logged

Heather

  • Prefect
  • Hufflepuff
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2138
  • Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2003, 09:06:42 PM »

I see what you are saying.  Snape has his own "issues" which affect his motivation.  I want to believe that ultimately his loyalties lie with Dumbledore.  Based on the actions we can see that he has taken, he appears to be more on Dumbledore's side.  The question remains (which you raised) - what has he done that we have not seen?  If he is a triple agent, I think it could result in Dumbledore's downfall. .  .
Logged
Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2003, 09:09:42 PM »

I agree, Heather. Snape is OBVIOUSLY a very very accomplished wizard, maybe powerful enough to even conceal things from Dumbledore.


Also, I was thinking... The reason for Snape being denied a job as DaDa Professor... Well, if it really is jinxed, that would mean Dumbledore wouldn't get to have him around after his first year, right? So maybe Dumbledore just won't let him do it, because he knows it IS jinxed and wants Snape around!
Logged

Heather

  • Prefect
  • Hufflepuff
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2138
  • Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2003, 09:13:52 PM »

I agree - I had the same thought.  The other thought that I had was maybe Snape was being denied the DaDA job because it might bring out too much of the dark side (sorry for the Star Wars reference) in him.

I think you may be on to something.  Lupin kept said Snape was an accomplished at concealing his thoughts.  Also, remember in Goblet of Fire - BEFORE Moody got the DaDA job (in chapter 1), Voldemort kept talking about his person at Hogwarts (could this be Snape?).  I always thought it was a reference to Moody - but Moody did not get the job until after the World Cup (maybe I am over analyzing).
Logged
Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Sirius Black

  • Resident Bum
  • Gryffindor
  • Seventh-year
  • *******
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
Re:Snape: a double agent?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2003, 09:41:29 PM »

Heather, I think it's almost impossible to over-analyze anything with JKR and such. Keep going with your thoughts, I like them. Anything else you think of, post it up for discussion.


I like the point that Voldemort was talking about it BEFORE "Moody" was at Hogwarts.. I mean, he could just have been talking knowing that "Moody" had already been hired and would be working at Hogwarts, or he COULD have been referring to Snape...
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up